Toriyama said that Freeza's species is a bunch of mutants and hybrids. Superpowerful Genetics are definitely involved, judging by how strong his father and brother are. Perhaps they're so powerful because the warrior race + normal race = SUPER STRONG HYBRID method works with more than just saiyans and humans?
To specify, that's his post-retcon reason. His original reason was fear of a million giant monkey saiyans all attacking him at once. Honestly, I liked that one better.
Again, even if you don't count Cooler, Freeza wouldn't be the strongest, just by virtue of Dabra and Kaioshin being here.
edited 14th Jan '14 5:29:38 PM by sockpuppet1
Kaioshin and Dabra aren't part of the "mortal" universe. Going by the manga, Freeza is the strongest in the universe at the time of his reign.
And Freeza's reason isn't much of a retcon. That's Dodoria's claim vs Freeza/Vegeta's claim. Freeza also shows concern over a single Saiyan being able to oppose him very early on, before "Super Saiyan" is even introduced as a concept.
How are they not? They're physically present in the universe. Therefore, they're the strongest in the universe. And who says Dabra isn't a mortal?
From a story telling perspective, it is. And it's much dumber than the original reason, because unlike the potential saiyan army, blowing up Vegeta wouldn't stop a Super Saiyan when he left the strongest saiyan prodigy alive.
edited 14th Jan '14 6:03:32 PM by sockpuppet1
Beings like the Kais & Dabura exist on a different plane of existance; they can enter the "main" universe, but they aren't native to count as "the strongest in the universe".
Strictly speaking, even if all of the Saiyans on Vegeta turned into Oozaru, wouldn't Freeza still be strong enough to slaughter them all without much worry? The Super Saiyan reason makes more sense because in that regard.
Sometimes life just sucks. You have to learn to take the good with the bad. Why should you expect anything different in the mediums?![]()
He originates from a different realm, but he's still a part of this universe ever since coming under Babidi's control over 300 years ago. And Kaioshin explicitly describes his home as a "the world of demons", not the universe. BOG only further supports Dabra's kingdom being in the same universe as Freeza's empire and Earth.
No way to tell, since we've never seen a million guys try to attack one guy. But logically- and since Zarbon and Vegeta considered it a plausible reason for Freeza wanting to wipe out the saiyans- Freeza would die if a whole army was working together to kill him.
edited 14th Jan '14 6:28:37 PM by sockpuppet1
He'd still be able to blow up the planet said army was on, no problem. He did it in his first form, and even though he kinda botched it, he was able to do it in his true form too.
He'd just fly up into space where he can survive, throw a big energy ball 'o death at the planet they were on, BOOM, bunch of rubble & dead Saiyans.
I forgot, at the time Planet Vegeta was destroyed, wasn't the Oozaru form nearly uncontrollable? I thought Vegeta being able to retain his mind during it was something he did before the first fight on Earth. Because if the Saiyans couldn't plan out a proper attack in their giant ape forms, then Freeza would still be able to avoid them & blow up the planet easily.
edited 14th Jan '14 7:00:44 PM by biznizz
Sometimes life just sucks. You have to learn to take the good with the bad. Why should you expect anything different in the mediums?No, they're not. The mortal Universe doesn't cover the Kaioshin realm and Makai. Kaioshin explicitly says to Goku's group "you may be the strongest in this universe, but Dabra is the strongest in his universe". Things get a little fuzzy when Dabra has had knowledge of Earth 300 years ago (but it's never said he was working for Babidi when he explored Earth) but Kaioshin's comment still holds - and I'm pretty sure that's exactly why it is there, to explain the Dabra being unknown about before then. Furthermore, Toriyama's sketch of the DB Cosmos clearly separates Makai from the rest of the Universe, as well as the Kaioshin realm.
No, it's not dumber. He killed off all the Saiyans except for three, and kept them in his employ. He's nearly 10,000 times stronger than Vegeta after the latter has already grown up and can kill him at any time, well before he becomes a threat. He might've killed Vegeta even if he showed no open signs of insubordination if Vegeta became too strong for Freeza's henchman to handle.
Uh, you may want to re-check that. I just did and he specifically said world in that quote instead of universe.
Kaioshin: Of course. He’s the king of the Dark Demon Realm, after all. One of you people is probably the #1 in this world, but in the other world, the world of demons, Dabra is absolutely on top.
Toriyama's sketch can separate those two regions if he wants- it doesn't suddenly make them different universes, and doesn't suddenly invalidate the fact that Dabra and Kaioshin were physically present in this universe. Also, I notice how you said "the rest of the universe"... clearly acknowledging that those realms ARE part of the universe, so anyone in them would be a candidate for the "strongest in the universe" title. Hell, Freeza wouldn't even be in the top five when you factor in the Makaioshin from Dabra's demon realm as well. But I'm only talking about those physically present in the same realm as Freeza- Dabra and Kaioshin.
edited 14th Jan '14 9:20:09 PM by sockpuppet1
I was paraphrasing but "world" is used in the exact same way it is for Freeza.
Context: after learning of Recoom and co.’s defeat from Jheese
Ginyu: “You’re talking nonsense! We’re the Ginyu Special-Squad! Nobody besides Freeza exists in this world stronger than us!”
Context: Goku continues to explains why he doesn’t feel like fighting Freeza anymore
Goku: “I’m already satisfied. Your pride is in tatters…Someone has appeared who surpasses you, Freeza, who supposedly no one in this world could surpass…And this person was merely a Saiyan…”
Same shit.
Also, you don't decide what is in the same universe. AT does, and he did. Maybe he shouldn't have used the word "universe" but they're clearly separate for the purpose of what he's trying to put forward. And yes, when I said "rest of the universe" I should have said "cosmos" (because that is what is used to describe the entirety) but a slip up in words does not change my true meaning. An error is an error.
Kaioshin was only known to be involved in the mortal Universe after Freeza was already surpassed. Aside from one quote, which is unclear, the same goes from Dabra - we don't know when he came under Babidi's control (Dabra does not mention anything about Babidi when he says he had Earth investigated) and we don't know what he was doing while Freeza was around. We just know he naturally hangs out in Makai.
"World" and "universe" are not the same thing. "World" could mean something different than an actual planet, like how the Demon Realm is referred to as a "world", but it is never a synonym for universe.
Show me where he said "the Kaioshin and Demon realms are not part of the universe", when universe literally means everything in existence.
Err, if they're still part of the universe, then anyone in them would still be the strongest in the universe if they were stronger than universe. Simple.
Kaioshin was only known to be involved in the mortal Universe after Freeza was already surpassed. Aside from one quote, which is unclear, the same goes from Dabra - we don't know when he came under Babidi's control (Dabra does not mention anything about Babidi when he says he had Earth investigated) and we don't know what he was doing while Freeza was around. We just know he naturally hangs out in Makai.
What reason would Dabra have to investigate a galactic backwater like Earth if he wasn't working for Babidi?
edited 14th Jan '14 9:34:26 PM by sockpuppet1
But they're still used interchangeably in the manga.
Sure!
◊ "Mortal Universe" is separated from Makai at the bottom and the Kaioshin realm which sort of floats in its own little space.
But that's because you use the word differently than what he does.
There's some fluff in Dragon Ball Online about Makai attacking Earth in the past, but that's outside of the manga and given the time period of DBO the past could still mean after the manga events anyway. As the King of the Demon Realm, he might've been interested in conquering other places.
Although, hell, just being present in the Universe doesn't necessarily contradict anything when he's still not an inhabitant of the Universe.
Not really, no. Again, "world" is used for describing things other than actual planets. Like Dabra's Demon Realm. "Universe" never means anything other than "universe".
Was that really drawn by Toriyama? It certainly looks fan-made, which is not helped at all by the fact that it's on the DB wiki.
Dabra's and Kaioshin's realms are specified as different "worlds", but not different universes.
And I hate to bring it up, but BOG probably also sinks the theory that the Kaioshin and Demon realms are different universes.
But Dabra is most likely not a Makai.
Then why didn't he ever do so, when no one was around who was even remotely close to his power except Kaioshin, who was still one-shot material to him? From the way Kaioshin speaks of him, it's like he's surprised he ever left the Demon Realm.
Freeza said stuff like "I'm the strongest in the universe" or "my power is the greatest in the universe". Not "I'm the strongest inhabitant of this universe". And Dabra would probably still count as an inhabitant ever since Babidi employed him.
Freeza was the most well known warrior in the galaxy, but not the actual strongest. And the most well known form of Freeza was his first form, who was actually far weaker than his father, who was not well known.
That's seriously just what you're deciding. It IS used interchangeably because you get the exact same quotes about Freeza with the only difference being the words "world" and "universe" swapped out for each other.
Don't know. It might be a recreation of what is said in the Super Exciting Guide, but with the exception of Makai at the bottom (which is at least in the text of the SEG it's the same as the oldest sketch
◊, although translated.
They're specified as both. Ignoring that world is used for universe, there's still plenty of official material that separates the Kaioshin realm from the universe and the Super Exciting Guide for Makai.
Well, I'm only talking about the manga. Beers makes it all moot.
He is. Not a Makaio or Makaioshin, probably, but he's a resident of Makai.
Maybe because it was beneath him? On Kaioshin's comment, that might suggest such a thing happened recently, depending on how much he monitored Babidi - he does know a fair bit about his style, with only Dabra taking him by surprise.
Dabra, and guidebooks, both refer to him as still being a resident of Makai. Apparently he has kept his position as king even after joining with Babidi. As to what Freeza says, I can just as easily say he never says "I am the strongest in the universe, including those from other universes who come here and may be visiting at this present time". He's not entirely concrete about what he means, but I think it's easy to infer that the intent was that he's the strongest inhabitant of the universe given that the only ones to be stronger than him come from other realms.
Going off the manga, yeah, he was. The comparison with his father means nothing, because it's only himself, Kaio, and people like Ginyu who refer to his as such, and at the very least Zarbon knows he can transform.
When someone says, "I'll see you in the next world...", they don't literally mean a different planet. Dragon Ball uses the word "world" a term of existance from time to time; the Kaioshin world is clearly not in the same level of existance that Earth is, if it's close to what is basically Heaven where deceased souls go.
Sometimes life just sucks. You have to learn to take the good with the bad. Why should you expect anything different in the mediums?

Freeza's strong because he's a mutant. Buuut so are the Ginyus, and he's just waaay stronger than them.
Freeza blew up planet Vegeta because he was scared of a Super Saiyan, he actually keeps those with high potential in his employ.