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Gilphon (4 Score & 7 Years Ago)
#4426: Jul 30th 2013 at 10:57:53 PM

I'd ask you for a source, but that seems pretty plausible to me. 17 and 18 always smelled a bit retcony to me. Like, 'what? No, those guys who were just totally ineffectual totally weren't the ones we needed a time traveller to warn us about, despite the fact that we would've had no way of opposing them if we didn't know to train for them. These two new guys are what the time traveller came to warn us about.'

Robotnik Since: Aug, 2011
#4427: Jul 30th 2013 at 10:59:19 PM

[up][up] The complaint about 19 and Gero being the androids I can understand. 17 and 18 not so much; I felt they made a decent pair of antagonists, although if their characterizations were going to be at all like they were in the final version, they probably would've made Heel Face Turns, which would've been an anti-climax.

edited 30th Jul '13 11:00:01 PM by Robotnik

Anomalocaris20 from Sagittarius A* Since: Sep, 2010 Relationship Status: Love blinded me (with science!)
#4428: Jul 30th 2013 at 11:31:49 PM

It's less their characterizations and more their aesthetics, I think. We went from a bizarre white and purple transforming alien to what looked like two ordinary humans. Cell, on the other hand, was a transforming lizard insect monster.

You cannot firmly grasp the true form of Squidward's technique!
TheEvilDrBolty Since: Dec, 2009 Relationship Status: I'd need a PowerPoint presentation
#4429: Jul 30th 2013 at 11:34:45 PM

...which, to me, is what made 17 and 18 awesome. They look so normal, which gives them an entire other level of chilling that Freeza and Cell couldn't pull off.

Saiga Since: Feb, 2011 Relationship Status: Getting away with murder
#4430: Jul 31st 2013 at 1:53:13 AM

Yes, it's true, however it was actually Toriyama's former editor that wanted him to change things (speaking as a friend, with no actual authority over him). That's how it was so sudden, because they didn't see the Androids until they had appeared in the magazine, and didn't like them. So first 19 and 20 were replaced, and then 17 and 18 were replaced by Cell. And Cell wasn't originally intended to transform, either, that was another suggestion of his former editor... and a bad one, I think. Imperfect Cell was best Cell.

Also, yeah, Future Freeza and Cold failed to kill anyone. Goku had Shunkan Ido, remember? The only reason he hadn't used it in the "main" timeline is because Goku had sensed Trunks' ki and decided to wait and see what Trunks was up to. Then when Trunks took care of things he decided just to arrive normally.

alekos23 Since: Mar, 2013
#4431: Jul 31st 2013 at 2:03:41 AM

man,toriyama was very easily influenced,it seems [lol]

Iaculus Pronounced YAK-you-luss from England Since: May, 2010
Pronounced YAK-you-luss
#4432: Jul 31st 2013 at 2:30:34 AM

[up]Waving vast amounts of money in someone's direction will do that.

What's precedent ever done for us?
Saiga Since: Feb, 2011 Relationship Status: Getting away with murder
Iaculus Pronounced YAK-you-luss from England Since: May, 2010
Pronounced YAK-you-luss
#4434: Jul 31st 2013 at 3:37:39 AM

"We think this story decision will sell more and sell better."

What's precedent ever done for us?
Saiga Since: Feb, 2011 Relationship Status: Getting away with murder
#4435: Jul 31st 2013 at 3:50:58 AM

That is a gross misinterpretation of what happened. It was nothing to do with sales.

theweirdKiddokun What a Wonderful World! from Last Place in the Race Since: Jun, 2012 Relationship Status: Maxing my social links
What a Wonderful World!
#4436: Jul 31st 2013 at 7:32:48 AM

Yea...that was a little out of place. Toriyama's editor has been around since his Doctor Slump days. Toriyama trusts him to give sound advice.

edited 31st Jul '13 7:33:03 AM by theweirdKiddokun

The Reaper Games starts anew.
stingerbrg Since: Jun, 2009
#4437: Jul 31st 2013 at 9:18:54 AM

And it was a former editor, a friend, not a boss engaging in Executive Meddling.

edited 31st Jul '13 9:19:05 AM by stingerbrg

Enlong Court Dragon from The Underground Facility Since: May, 2011 Relationship Status: is commanded to— WANK!
Court Dragon
#4438: Jul 31st 2013 at 3:31:57 PM

I do sort of like, then, tht he managed to write in Trunks being baffled s to which andoids showed up.

I have a message from another time...
Lionheart0 Since: Oct, 2009 Relationship Status: I'm just a hunk-a, hunk-a burnin' love
#4439: Jul 31st 2013 at 4:48:14 PM

I didn't mind Cell transforming, because he was different enough from Frieza that it felt warranted. Buu though? That was the point where I think Toriyama was clearly running out of ideas.

Demongodofchaos2 Face me now, bitch! from In a Cultivation World (Ancient one) Relationship Status: 700 wives and 300 concubines
Face me now, bitch!
#4440: Jul 31st 2013 at 5:21:19 PM

To be honest, I kinda agree.

Having 3 transforming villains in a row gets repetitive, and Buu transforms more then both of them put together.

edited 31st Jul '13 5:21:27 PM by Demongodofchaos2

Watch Symphogear
orionaurora Constellation from Andromeda Galaxy Since: Mar, 2012 Relationship Status: Abstaining
Constellation
#4442: Jul 31st 2013 at 8:12:18 PM

So I'm not the only one who noticed the conundrum of Trunk's timeline Frieza but was it really confirmed that Frieza never killed anyone?

We are all made of star stuff. Very, very weird star stuff.
unnoun Since: Jan, 2012
#4443: Jul 31st 2013 at 8:25:34 PM

Frieza can't have killed anyone because they were all alive when the Androids showed up.

Enlong Court Dragon from The Underground Facility Since: May, 2011 Relationship Status: is commanded to— WANK!
Court Dragon
#4444: Jul 31st 2013 at 9:55:25 PM

In addition, everyone but Gohan had been revived by Earth's Dragonballs once before, so the only way they could have killed anyone would be for it to have been Gohan and only Gohan.

I have a message from another time...
GethKnight Since: Apr, 2010
#4445: Jul 31st 2013 at 9:58:14 PM

None of them would have been there when Freiza showed up initially.

Saiga Since: Feb, 2011 Relationship Status: Getting away with murder
#4446: Jul 31st 2013 at 10:01:22 PM

Goku would have intervened even before Trunks did (Trunks only confronted Freeza because Goku hadn't attacked Freeza when he did in the future) and Goku was even stronger than Trunks, so of course Freeza and Cold wouldn't have killed anyone.

TobiasDrake (•̀⤙•́) (Edited uphill both ways) Relationship Status: Arm chopping is not a love language!
(•̀⤙•́)
#4447: Aug 2nd 2013 at 2:59:12 PM

Freeza and Cold killing Yamcha isn't necessarily impossible. There's a three year gap between their arrival and the Androids, and because the Namekian Dragon Balls were the ones used to resurrect everyone, Yamcha and Tien can both still be resurrected in the three years between Freeza and the Androids. Barring a trip to New Namek, Vegeta, Krillin, and Chiaotzu would be hosed if killed, though, and everyone would be hosed if Piccolo died. Hey, maybe that's why they were too weak to fight the Androids, because they wound up having another adventure on New Namek rather than training; this is a cast of characters for whom "they weren't training for three years" is unacceptable as an explanation, because these people do nothing but train in their spare time.

"Hi, Yamcha." "Hi, Krillin." "I'm bored." "Me too. Let's fight."

That being said, as has been noted, Goku can now teleport. There's no reason Freeza or King Cold would ever have fought Yamcha, especially since all that time in space seems to have substantially increased Goku's power level - is this that bizarre Saiyan physiology thing again? - to the point that he could Curbstomp the guy who Curbstomped Freeza.

I am glad they replaced 19 and 20 with 17 and 18, because of what I mentioned above. 17 and 18 mop the floor with our protagonists DESPITE all that training, which justifies that plot hole, because it takes away the implication of "they weren't training and so they got slaughtered", as was implied by the idea that training allows them to defeat the Androids. They did train in the other timeline, and they got demolished just as hard there as they did in this one.

edited 2nd Aug '13 3:02:42 PM by TobiasDrake

My Tumblr. Currently side-by-side liveblogging Digimon Adventure, sub vs dub.
BearyScary Since: Sep, 2010 Relationship Status: You spin me right round, baby
#4448: Aug 2nd 2013 at 7:27:13 PM

I am a thread lurker with a dumb question: How does Vegeta not know what a condom is?

Do not obey in advance.
unnoun Since: Jan, 2012
#4449: Aug 2nd 2013 at 7:32:12 PM

Presumably they don't have those in space.

Or, considering the Saiyan race died when he was a kid and the only adult he spent time around was Nappa, he just never learned about them.

What knowledge he has of sex is probably more in spite of his actual experience on the subject.

theweirdKiddokun What a Wonderful World! from Last Place in the Race Since: Jun, 2012 Relationship Status: Maxing my social links
What a Wonderful World!
#4450: Aug 2nd 2013 at 7:34:47 PM

Or because it don't have the word Space in front of it.tongue

The Reaper Games starts anew.

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