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Dragon Ball Z Abridged

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alekos23 Since: Mar, 2013
#38501: Dec 23rd 2020 at 2:10:14 PM

Maybe some more movie forms? They did sorta like Cooler's Shredder mode. Also maybe the giant Namekian form. Or for Moro arc spoilers Moro's forms and UI Susanoo. tongue

thok That's Dr. Title, thank you! (4 Score & 7 Years Ago) Relationship Status: Non-Canon
That's Dr. Title, thank you!
#38502: Dec 23rd 2020 at 2:33:35 PM

They've implied Zarbon's an honorable mention by showing him in the intro to the 12th place video.

Edited by thok on Dec 23rd 2020 at 5:34:27 AM

fasoman1996 Google "big ears" from Argentina (A.K.A. Naziland) Since: Dec, 2014 Relationship Status: Baby don't hurt me!
Google "big ears"
#38503: Dec 23rd 2020 at 3:22:20 PM

Hopefully go over the problems with Blue.

Uni cat
Weirdguy149 Former King from Lumiose City Since: Jul, 2014 Relationship Status: I'd jump in front of a train for ya!
Former King
#38504: Dec 23rd 2020 at 3:26:07 PM

I thought they already established their problems with Blue on the Super Saiyan God section.

The legend has returned.
Pokesamus Since: Aug, 2016
#38505: Dec 23rd 2020 at 3:46:28 PM

Nope Kaiser just commented that we didn’t see Goku or Vegeta actually acquire that form. Well that and Lani saying that both of it’s names are dumb.

Edited by Pokesamus on Dec 23rd 2020 at 4:04:27 AM

BlackYakuzu94 CHADhan Player. from Easy Coast/NY Since: May, 2013 Relationship Status: Longing for my OTP
CHADhan Player.
#38506: Dec 23rd 2020 at 5:05:38 PM

That's kind of the problem right there lmao; An overly redundant name, and lack of any kind of buildup are the main issues with Blue. In addition to just being extremely uninspired designs.

A lazy millennial who's good at what he does.
TobiasDrake (•̀⤙•́) (Edited uphill both ways) Relationship Status: Arm chopping is not a love language!
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#38507: Dec 23rd 2020 at 5:26:45 PM

Battle of Gods establishes Super Saiyan God. Goku internalizes it, makes it his own, and Vegeta sets out to master it himself.

This is a plot hook. But then the next story starts and Blue exists and they're both proficient in that.

It's like if Goku and Vegeta both just had Super Saiyan 2 when Goku returned from Yardrat.

Edited by TobiasDrake on Dec 23rd 2020 at 5:27:12 AM

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BlackYakuzu94 CHADhan Player. from Easy Coast/NY Since: May, 2013 Relationship Status: Longing for my OTP
CHADhan Player.
#38508: Dec 23rd 2020 at 5:31:54 PM

And on top of that, it doesn't even win the fight it debuts in. The fight is more about Freeza than it is about Goku.

A lazy millennial who's good at what he does.
TobiasDrake (•̀⤙•́) (Edited uphill both ways) Relationship Status: Arm chopping is not a love language!
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#38509: Dec 23rd 2020 at 7:32:17 PM

I legit do not understand why Blue exists. It shouldn't. It genuinely should not exist.

New transformations generally serve the purpose of letting the protagonists retire last season's powerset and kick it up to some next level to face the new threat.

  • Kaioken wasn't enough to beat Frieza, so Goku became a Super Saiyan.
  • Super Saiyan wasn't enough to beat Cell, so Gohan became Super Saiyan 2.
  • Super Saiyan 2 wasn't enough to beat Majin Buu, so Goku and Gotenks became Super Saiyan 3 (and lost, but still).
  • Super Saiyan 3 wasn't enough to beat Beerus, so Goku became Super Saiyan God (and lost, but still).
  • Super Saiyan Blue wasn't enough to beat Jiren, so Goku became Ultra Instinct (and lost, but still).

There is no escalation point for Blue. There was no adversary that God couldn't handle so they had to go Blue. It's just there. God was replaced with Blue offscreen between movies and, as a result, there's not really anything they do with Blue that the writers couldn't just as well have used God for.

Blue doesn't really have a reason to exist.

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fasoman1996 Google "big ears" from Argentina (A.K.A. Naziland) Since: Dec, 2014 Relationship Status: Baby don't hurt me!
Google "big ears"
#38510: Dec 23rd 2020 at 7:37:22 PM

And i'm still mad it screwed over regular Super Saiyan God off the spotlight for that dumb reason alone. Red at least looked visually distinct instead of just Super Saiyan but blue coloured.

And Blue losing to Freeza is a bit of a stretch because by all account, the form did beat Golden Freeza. It was just Goku was cheapshotted and Vegeta took his sweet time to finish off Freeza and the latter cheated out his way by exploding the planet.

Man Resurrection F just keeps sucking more and more the longer you think about it.

Uni cat
thok That's Dr. Title, thank you! (4 Score & 7 Years Ago) Relationship Status: Non-Canon
That's Dr. Title, thank you!
#38511: Dec 23rd 2020 at 8:09:03 PM

Battle of Gods established that Super Saiyan God had the SS3 issue of not really being sustainable for any long period of time (it also requires a ritual involving five Saiyans, which generally isn't something you can just do in combat). There are reasons to establish a form that fixes those issues; Super just did a poor job of conveying that information.

Edited by thok on Dec 23rd 2020 at 11:10:08 AM

TobiasDrake (•̀⤙•́) (Edited uphill both ways) Relationship Status: Arm chopping is not a love language!
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#38512: Dec 23rd 2020 at 9:05:08 PM

The ritual of five Saiyans is kind of a red-headed stepchild of a plot detail. Vegeta set out to find a way to achieve the form himself and apparently he succeeded 'cause the ritual is never, ever performed again. Throughout Super and all the way up to the Broly movie, Goku and Vegeta just turn on God like it's Blue or any other Super Saiyan form.

So it doesn't really work as a justification for Blue existing. You cannot in the same breath say Blue needed to exist so they have something they can activate on the fly and then also that God can now be activated on the fly.

Also, Blue is not a solution for God having ki-draining issues because Blue also has ki-draining issues. There really is no reason for Blue to exist.

(Also, from a writing perspective, if they had bothered to keep the ritual a thing, having as a plot point a super form that can only be achieved when all the protagonists can unite their power Captain Planet style is something that a talented writer could make great use out of)

Edited by TobiasDrake on Dec 23rd 2020 at 9:08:51 AM

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Pokesamus Since: Aug, 2016
#38513: Dec 23rd 2020 at 9:11:24 PM

At that point SSG just becomes a more convoluted fusion when it comes to story beats.

TobiasDrake (•̀⤙•́) (Edited uphill both ways) Relationship Status: Arm chopping is not a love language!
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#38514: Dec 23rd 2020 at 9:14:34 PM

Sure. And Vegetto/Gogeta rock the show's socks off every time they appear. I fail to see a problem here.

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Pokesamus Since: Aug, 2016
#38515: Dec 23rd 2020 at 9:15:38 PM

The fact that it’s redundant when we already have a protagonists combine their powers technique.

TobiasDrake (•̀⤙•́) (Edited uphill both ways) Relationship Status: Arm chopping is not a love language!
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#38516: Dec 23rd 2020 at 9:19:15 PM

We also have the Genki-Dama, but no one ever accused Fusion of being redundant on those grounds. Variety is good for storytelling.

Edited by TobiasDrake on Dec 23rd 2020 at 9:19:34 AM

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Pokesamus Since: Aug, 2016
#38517: Dec 23rd 2020 at 9:26:28 PM

That’s an attack, fusion and God are forms. Hell god even follows the story beat of fusions with it crapping out during an important bit and Goku. (Unwittingly) being forced to improvised off of it.

God_of_Awesome Since: Jan, 2001
#38518: Dec 23rd 2020 at 9:59:42 PM

i always thought of transformations as techniques, but I was never a fan of DB at all, so it might be my Exalted fan talking.

TobiasDrake (•̀⤙•́) (Edited uphill both ways) Relationship Status: Arm chopping is not a love language!
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#38519: Dec 23rd 2020 at 10:17:31 PM

Let me let you in on a storywriting secret: there is no functional difference between an attack and a transformation. They're both just chunks of fight aesthetic wrapped around the plot beats to make them entertaining.

There isn't actually a difference between the Kaioken and Super Saiyan. Kaioken has a risk associated with it, but that's just a trick to create tension; it never actually decides any of Goku's fights. Kaioken gives Goku a power boost and, in turn, Goku is written to be of a specific power level such that he needs the power boost of Kaioken to compete. He stops using Kaioken once he achieves Super Saiyan because Super Saiyan gives him a better power boost, and continues to be written to be of a specific power level such that he needs the power boost of Super Saiyan to compete.

When Super Saiyan replaces Kaioken, it's a lateral move. Goku hasn't traded a technique for a transformation; he's in the exact same position he was in before, and it's only the visual aesthetic of his plot points that's been altered.

Goku's bag of techniques and transformations are a toolkit of various aesthetics that can be used to create and resolve tension.

  • The Genki-Dama might defeat this enemy... but only if enough time can be bought for Goku to charge it.
  • The Potara might defeat this enemy... but only if Goku can convince Vegeta to wear the earring, and neither of them smashes it in a fit of machismo.
  • The Fusion Dance might defeat this enemy... but only if Goten and Trunks or Goku and Vegeta can learn to do it right.
  • Super Saiyan 3 might defeat this enemy... but only if Goku can overcome its intense ki drain.

Do you see how this works? A potential resolution to the existing tension is brought into play, but it also creates and adds to the existing tension by having clauses attached. This is a key element of writing these kind of shonen fights.

As another example, Gohan's hidden power was taken out of the vault and reintroduced by Goku into the Cell Games as that conflict's resolution. But trying to use it as such generated new tension: Gohan's hidden power can end this, but only if Gohan can get over himself and become willing to fight.

That tension had to be resolved by Android 16's sacrifice, thus allowing Gohan's hidden power to finally congeal into its ultimate form: Super Saiyan 2. And so Super Saiyan 2 would be the resolution of tension to the Cell Games. Except that created new tension: Gohan's malicious persona and sadistic dragging out of Cell's defeat ultimately gave Cell the opportunity to flip the table once again.

Tension created. Tension resolved. And every attack and technique and transformation is just a different aesthetic in the toolkit, with its own set of particular plot beats associated.

The Super Saiyan God ritual could have been one such aesthetic. Needing to assemble multiple protagonists from whatever the plot presently has them doing is a way to create tension by introducing a resolution to the existing tension. Had the God ritual been used as sparingly as Fusion and had God Goku been treated with the same almighty reverence from the story as Gogeta and Vegetto, it would have made Super Saiyan God into an incredible treat to behold.

And it would honestly be more viable as a creator of tension than Fusion presently is, as that only requires Goku to convince Vegeta to fuse with him at a time when Vegeta is glued to Goku's hip at all times anyway.

Instead, what we have is Blue. And Blue isn't an aesthetic in the toolkit. Blue's a status quo. It's the baseline state that Goku and Vegeta start out the fight in. Blue failing to be good enough is what creates the initial tension in the first place, which is why both Goku and Vegeta had to be given further power-ups to resolve tension.

But even if all of that wasn't the case. Even setting aside what could have been with the God ritual as a plot device in the toolkit. Even if they only used God as a status quo, just as they are doing now with Blue. That still doesn't change the fact that Blue has no reason to exist, because if God was the baseline state instead of Blue, not a single thing about the existing story would change. Only the color of Goku and Vegeta's hair.

At no point has the existence of Blue as a separate form from God ever mattered to the story.

Edited by TobiasDrake on Dec 23rd 2020 at 10:18:21 AM

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thok That's Dr. Title, thank you! (4 Score & 7 Years Ago) Relationship Status: Non-Canon
That's Dr. Title, thank you!
#38520: Dec 23rd 2020 at 10:27:53 PM

I was about to argue that requiring the ritual for Super Saiyan God basically turns it into the Spirit Bomb, which is already the go to move for when they want to have the non-Goku members of the cast stall for time, and is a bit more flexible on who can contribute their power.

Obviously, Toriyama does a lot of writing by the seat of his pants; that said, Super Saiyan God was always clearly designed from its introduction to specifically be a stepping stone for Goku; Goku and Beerus specifically talk about this during their final fight in Battle of Gods. The problem isn't Super Saiyan Blue; the problem is that Toriyama left out the part where Goku masters what he learned from his time in Super Saiyan God (which is weird, since they basically did include the "mastering a power that you've just learned about" part of the plot for Ultra Instinct).

God_of_Awesome Since: Jan, 2001
#38521: Dec 23rd 2020 at 10:35:07 PM

I'm gonna go back and read the rest of what you wrote, Tobias, because it's often interesting, but I was more commenting on TGS's ranking and qualifications.

If transformations are techniques, Ultra Instinct being a technique doesn't disqualify it.

Though, SS really doesn't count as a technique, it's too innate for that. Freeza's transformations were totally techniques though, unless I'm wrong about something.

TobiasDrake (•̀⤙•́) (Edited uphill both ways) Relationship Status: Arm chopping is not a love language!
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#38522: Dec 24th 2020 at 6:48:34 AM

I was about to argue that requiring the ritual for Super Saiyan God basically turns it into the Spirit Bomb, which is already the go to move for when they want to have the non-Goku members of the cast stall for time, and is a bit more flexible on who can contribute their power.

Those are different plot beats.

The Genki-Dama requires someone to stall for time, and also that there be a plentiful amount of life to contribute. The God Ritual requires a set of characters to each be aware of what is happening, be able to drop what they are doing and participate in what is happening, and to be able to reach the same geographic location. Intercept one of them and God doesn't happen.

If the ritual had remained a plot point, Super Saiyan God would be harder to achieve than the Genki-Dama, harder to achieve than Fusion, but offer a much greater power than either as a result. A writer can then write stories where sometimes the climax is the characters managing to achieve God, and sometimes having to come up with something else.

As an example: Zamasu. When Zamasu travels back in time to follow Trunks and attack, the protagonists can perform the God Ritual and Super Saiyan God can send Zamasu back to the future with his tail between his legs. But then they have to pursue him. Goku, Vegeta, and Trunks cannot perform the God Ritual by themselves. So while we just established that God Goku is well beyond Zamasu, that doesn't matter 'cause it won't be an option for the next fight. They'll have to rely on Fusion or Super Saiyan 3 or the Genki-Dama in a dead world instead.

Edited by TobiasDrake on Dec 24th 2020 at 6:51:00 AM

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#38523: Dec 24th 2020 at 7:02:15 AM

Personally, I like the idea of having Super Saiyan God be a ritual-only form, but I also really like Super Saiyan Blue. I've toyed before with the idea of having God be STRONGER than Blue. Like, Goku and Vegeta manage to get a little bit of Godly Ki from training with Whis, which they can tap into in their base forms for a power-up, or they can combine it with Super Saiyan for Super Saiyan Blue, which is still much weaker than Goku was when he was fighting Beerus, but they're later able to approach Super Saiyan God level with things like Blue Kaioken and Blue Evolution, and finally surpass it with Ultra Instinct.

That way, God is still a situational ritual transformation with incredible power, but Goku and Vegeta manage to access the realm of the gods under their own power by training with Whis and using Blue.

Edited by PushoverMediaCritic on Dec 24th 2020 at 8:03:07 AM

alekos23 Since: Mar, 2013
BlackYakuzu94 CHADhan Player. from Easy Coast/NY Since: May, 2013 Relationship Status: Longing for my OTP
CHADhan Player.
#38525: Dec 24th 2020 at 9:19:23 AM

And in a departure from how they've done it, they're basically open mic.

A lazy millennial who's good at what he does.

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