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Anomalocaris20 from Sagittarius A* Since: Sep, 2010 Relationship Status: Love blinded me (with science!)
#3801: Apr 1st 2013 at 11:13:44 AM

Cooler's Revenge is pretty non-canon too. It requires Goku to have returned to earth right after defeating Frieza, rather than spending a while in space.

You cannot firmly grasp the true form of Squidward's technique!
wanderlustwarrior Role Model from Where Gods Belong Since: Jun, 2009 Relationship Status: What's love got to do with it?
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#3802: Apr 1st 2013 at 11:22:21 AM

All the Cooler and Broly movies are in different timelines.

CPFMfan I am serious. This is my serious face. from A Whale's Vagina Since: Aug, 2010
I am serious. This is my serious face.
#3803: Apr 1st 2013 at 12:58:48 PM

[up][up] It really doesn't. It seems to be the one that fits the second best, actually, after Bojack. In fact, in Return of Cooler, which is a direct continuation of this film, Goku says that he did spend time in space prior to meeting Cooler the first time, cause he can teleport. The first Cooler movie doesn't seem to have any errors at all, aside from one case of stupidity for drama that happens in every other movie.

And how in god's name do Super 13, Second Coming, and Bio-Broly fit?

edited 1st Apr '13 1:07:33 PM by CPFMfan

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Anomalocaris20 from Sagittarius A* Since: Sep, 2010 Relationship Status: Love blinded me (with science!)
#3804: Apr 1st 2013 at 1:51:55 PM

Super 13 is some time during the Androids saga, no? After Gero's death but before the real meat of the Cell saga. Does it fit in there?

I think you're right about Second Coming and Bio-Broly, I forgot about how Goku being dead impacts those two. Second Coming would have to be some time after Goku returned to the dead but with Gohan still on earth.

edited 1st Apr '13 1:54:30 PM by Anomalocaris20

You cannot firmly grasp the true form of Squidward's technique!
unnoun Since: Jan, 2012
#3805: Apr 1st 2013 at 1:54:41 PM

Pretty sure Second Coming would work because it involved Goten and Trunks looking for the Dragon Balls because they sounded cool. So they go looking, find Broly and wake him up because they're idiots.

Goku was dead at the time, he just kinda broke the rules with his instant transmission. So it could have happened after his death but before the World Tournament.

Anomalocaris20 from Sagittarius A* Since: Sep, 2010 Relationship Status: Love blinded me (with science!)
#3806: Apr 1st 2013 at 1:55:56 PM

Except Gohan and Videl are together, which is a complication. I guess it could be some time while still teaching Videl about flying and the like, though.

And Goku didn't break any rules to assist at the end, Goten said "I wish dad were here!" while struggling with Broly's Omega Blaster, and Shenron heard. I guess bringing Goku back for just a few seconds to lend his support didn't break the rule regarding his inability to be wished back.

edited 1st Apr '13 1:58:04 PM by Anomalocaris20

You cannot firmly grasp the true form of Squidward's technique!
CPFMfan I am serious. This is my serious face. from A Whale's Vagina Since: Aug, 2010
I am serious. This is my serious face.
#3807: Apr 1st 2013 at 2:17:21 PM

Gohan and Videl are together, Gohan knows that Goten can turn Super Saiyan, and Goku is dead. Pretty sure that there is no place in the series where all of that is true at once.

As for Super 13... Gero is dead, no one has trained in the Time Chamber, Goku is up and about, Piccolo is fused, it doesn't seem that Cell has shown up, and Trunks' sword isn't broken. By the time Goku recovered, Cell had already absorbed both androids and Trunks and Vegeta had gone into the Time Chamber. I don't think there's any free period where this could've happened.

Like I said, Cooler's movie fits, as does Bojack's and the last movie. I think that's it.

edited 1st Apr '13 2:32:33 PM by CPFMfan

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Anomalocaris20 from Sagittarius A* Since: Sep, 2010 Relationship Status: Love blinded me (with science!)
#3808: Apr 1st 2013 at 2:34:06 PM

I don't see how Cooler's fits. It's before Trunks arrived but with Goku on earth (And still not having mastery of Super Saiyan). Impossible.

You cannot firmly grasp the true form of Squidward's technique!
CPFMfan I am serious. This is my serious face. from A Whale's Vagina Since: Aug, 2010
I am serious. This is my serious face.
#3809: Apr 1st 2013 at 2:38:19 PM

It doesn't have to be before Trunks arrives. Return of Cooler basically confirms that it was after, cause Goku had to have spent that year in space to learn how to teleport. It seems the only thing that makes it "impossible" is that Goku didn't transform immediately... which is what happens in every movie. Did Trunks not master Super Saiyan in Movie 9? Did Goku also not master Super Saiyan in Movie 7? And it's easy to explain why he didn't do it immediately; too risky in the middle of combat, he thought Cooler was only as strong as Freeza so only kaio-ken would be needed, it made for a more dramatic final battle, et cetera. Seriously, this happens in every movie, and this actually seems like one of the more justifiable cases of it...

Hmmmm... maybe Broly's first movie can fit in too, I'm not sure. Cooler, Bojack, and Hirudegarn are the only ones that I know for sure can fit though.

edited 1st Apr '13 3:25:07 PM by CPFMfan

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Saiga Since: Feb, 2011 Relationship Status: Getting away with murder
#3810: Apr 1st 2013 at 3:55:34 PM

Cooler's Revenge fits if you ignore the things that make it not fit, just like every other movie. It's not just that Goku doesn't transform immediately, which is normal for the movies, but he also can't transform like he does after controlling the transformation. He still struggles to do so which completely contradicts his ability to instantly transform any time after Yardrat.

Return of Cooler doesn't, because they inexplicably have Dende as the new God before it even happened in the manga and as such nobody is the correct age to match it.

Also Second Coming has Videl know about the Dragon Balls, which she didn't know about until after Boo is released.

edited 1st Apr '13 3:57:23 PM by Saiga

wanderlustwarrior Role Model from Where Gods Belong Since: Jun, 2009 Relationship Status: What's love got to do with it?
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#3811: Apr 1st 2013 at 4:00:57 PM

Any movie with Goten is non-canon.

CPFMfan I am serious. This is my serious face. from A Whale's Vagina Since: Aug, 2010
I am serious. This is my serious face.
#3812: Apr 1st 2013 at 4:19:36 PM

[up][up]...just looked at the scene, and it wasn't at all different from any other time he transformed. Not seeing where he HAS to be unable to control it; he gets beaten up, gets back up, gets mad, and transforms in a few seconds. You can say that being angry made him transform, but you can just as easily say that he would've transformed either way, since no evidence supports either conclusion. He just gets beaten up and transforms right before the villain kills him, like every movie. You don't have to ignore anything.

In fact, it's pretty much identical to the time Trunks fought that green guy. He transforms, beating down Trunks and smashing him into the ground. Trunks lies there, defeated. Then, just as the bad guy is about to finish him off, he gets angry, gets up, and transforms. Then he kills him in one hit.

edited 1st Apr '13 4:24:21 PM by CPFMfan

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Saiga Since: Feb, 2011 Relationship Status: Getting away with murder
#3813: Apr 1st 2013 at 4:32:29 PM

No, it is different. It's far more similar to how he transforms on Namek than how he transforms when he actually gains the form. Even in other cases where PIS makes them fight in base before transforming, they still do so instantly.

CPFMfan I am serious. This is my serious face. from A Whale's Vagina Since: Aug, 2010
I am serious. This is my serious face.
#3814: Apr 1st 2013 at 4:36:27 PM

He did it in ten seconds after getting beaten up and thrown on the ground. On Namek, it was a full minute and a half grunt fest.

Not seeing the difference here. Plus, he confirms in Return of Cooler (which is a direct continuation of this movie and has numerous flashbacks to it) that he did learn how to teleport, which happened while he was away on an alien planet after Namek, so...

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Saiga Since: Feb, 2011 Relationship Status: Getting away with murder
#3815: Apr 1st 2013 at 4:37:03 PM

No, on Namek it was that long because they drew it out in filler. And I know RoC shows that he learned Instant Transmission, because by this time it was revealed that he had learned it in the manga. That doesn't retroactively make the first movie fit into continuity when it didn't already.

Besides that movie gives the same move to Cooler just for the hell of it.

edited 1st Apr '13 4:38:33 PM by Saiga

unnoun Since: Jan, 2012
#3816: Apr 1st 2013 at 4:40:12 PM

I seem to remember something about Goku only being able to control SS after Namek "most of the time". We mentioned it a few pages ago. I think it was when he was talking to Trunks or something.

It didn't seem like he started to really get control until the three year thing waiting for the Androids. Having some jerk from space show up at that point is fine.

Saiga Since: Feb, 2011 Relationship Status: Getting away with murder
#3817: Apr 1st 2013 at 4:44:12 PM

[up] Nope. Never said unless it was some sort of dub/sub addition.

edited 1st Apr '13 4:44:36 PM by Saiga

stingerbrg Since: Jun, 2009
#3818: Apr 1st 2013 at 4:45:58 PM

Gohan still has his Namek bowl-haircut in Cooler's Revenge, even though that's not how his hair is anytime we see him between Trunks's arrival and the appearance of the Androids.

That's about all I can contribute to the discussion here.

wanderlustwarrior Role Model from Where Gods Belong Since: Jun, 2009 Relationship Status: What's love got to do with it?
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#3819: Apr 1st 2013 at 4:50:02 PM

Cooler isn't a jerk.

He's a prick.

CPFMfan I am serious. This is my serious face. from A Whale's Vagina Since: Aug, 2010
I am serious. This is my serious face.
#3820: Apr 1st 2013 at 4:55:03 PM

No, on Namek it was that long because they drew it out in filler. And I know Ro C shows that he learned Instant Transmission, because by this time it was revealed that he had learned it in the manga. That doesn't retroactively make the first movie fit into continuity when it didn't already.

Irrelevant. Cooler was never in a manga, we just see that the animated version of Goku transforming on Namek is longer than the animated version of Goku transforming against Cooler by a considerable amount.

Once again, still not seeing how Goku couldn't turn Super Saiyan. There's no difference between this scene and the transformation scenes in the other movies. The movie fits fine, and a lot more problems are created by assuming that he hadn't been to Yardrat (why does he transform so much quicker, why is he so much more powerful, why does Roshi say at the beginning that Goku is training harder than ever, why can he teleport, et cetera) than assuming he had (which contradicts nothing).

Also, Cooler could teleport? I thought only his metal clones could.

Gohan still has his Namek bowl-haircut in Cooler's Revenge, even though that's not how his hair is anytime we see him between Trunks's arrival and the appearance of the Androids.

So you're saying that he can't change hairstyles during a three year period?

edited 1st Apr '13 4:57:01 PM by CPFMfan

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Saiga Since: Feb, 2011 Relationship Status: Getting away with murder
#3821: Apr 1st 2013 at 5:02:23 PM

It's not irrelevant. The only reason the animated version was longer because it was stretched out for padding. And Goku's transformation in Movie 5 was based on his transformation in the manga, because the anime hadn't gotten to that point. And it's completely different from the transformations in the other movies, where they instantaneously transform rather than here.

stingerbrg Since: Jun, 2009
#3822: Apr 1st 2013 at 5:11:06 PM

[up][up]No, just that that's one of the reasons for it not fitting that I know, and that it is somewhat useful as one of the indicators of Gohan's age throughout the series is his hairstyle.

CPFMfan I am serious. This is my serious face. from A Whale's Vagina Since: Aug, 2010
I am serious. This is my serious face.
#3823: Apr 1st 2013 at 5:49:21 PM

It's not irrelevant. The only reason the animated version was longer because it was stretched out for padding. And Goku's transformation in Movie 5 was based on his transformation in the manga, because the anime hadn't gotten to that point. And it's completely different from the transformations in the other movies, where they instantaneously transform rather than here.

Still irrelevant. Cooler is an anime only character, you can't really judge him using manga logic; in the anime, Goku took a long time to turn Super Saiyan. Against Cooler, it took less than ten seconds. Once again, the movie can fit fine because there's absolutely no proof that he couldn't turn into a Super Saiyan. It just requires you to believe that Goku did the same thing everyone else does in the movies and waited until the last mission, after he got beaten up and pissed off, until he transformed.

Oh, and I checked. In Super 13, Vegeta takes about as long as to become a Super Saiyan as Goku did in the Cooler movie, and even then only after getting beaten up and becoming angry.

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Saiga Since: Feb, 2011 Relationship Status: Getting away with murder
#3824: Apr 1st 2013 at 5:51:05 PM

No, it's not irrelevant. Cooler may be an anime only character but that doesn't mean anything here. The scene was directly based on the manga version. The anime version didn't even exist at this point.

Now you're just forcing things to suit your viewpoint and shoehorn the movie into fitting where it doesn't.

CPFMfan I am serious. This is my serious face. from A Whale's Vagina Since: Aug, 2010
I am serious. This is my serious face.
#3825: Apr 1st 2013 at 5:51:56 PM

Now you're just forcing things to suit your viewpoint

No, I'm not. You are. You say that it absolutely cannot fit because he took a few seconds to transform and only did so after getting beaten up, but that's no different than what happens in every other movie.

edited 2nd Apr '13 10:09:48 PM by CPFMfan

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