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TobiasDrake (•̀⤙•́) (Edited uphill both ways) Relationship Status: Arm chopping is not a love language!
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#37551: Mar 3rd 2020 at 3:01:56 PM

Piccolo kinda got screwed.

The Cell arc gave him his big culminating moment of his entire story, where he and God finally merge and become one again. This huge milestone in his character history provided him with the power to... briefly hold his own in a fight with Android 17 before getting stomped by Cell and contributing nothing further to the arc ever again.

Big character moment. Doesn't amount to much. It's like if Goku going Super Saiyan on Namek still wasn't enough to defeat Frieza.

My Tumblr. Currently side-by-side liveblogging Digimon Adventure, sub vs dub.
Ghilz Perpetually Confused from Yeeted at Relativistic Velocities Since: Jan, 2001 Relationship Status: Barbecuing
Perpetually Confused
#37552: Mar 3rd 2020 at 3:20:52 PM

The Cell arc gave him his big culminating moment of his entire story, where he and God finally merge and become one again. This huge milestone in his character history provided him with the power to... briefly hold his own in a fight with Android 17 before getting stomped by Cell and contributing nothing further to the arc ever again.

Big character moment. Doesn't amount to much. It's like if Goku going Super Saiyan on Namek still wasn't enough to defeat Frieza.

Piccolo's life really. What's Piccolo's story on Namek? Show up, finally sees his homeworld, and now with King Kai's training. Merges with Nail, beats the shit out of Frieza, but jk lol Frieza has 2 more forms thanks for trying k thx bye.

After this his contribution is limited to standing on the side for Vegeta to upstage him, before getting the shit kicked out of him to buy Goku some time for an attack that ultimately does nothing, before Freeza takes him and Krillin out of the fight, the later terminally.

Piccolo's role is to be a jobber for Vegeta while Vegeta jobs for Goku

Edited by Ghilz on Mar 3rd 2020 at 6:21:55 AM

Weirdguy149 Former King from Lumiose City Since: Jul, 2014 Relationship Status: I'd jump in front of a train for ya!
Former King
#37553: Mar 3rd 2020 at 3:23:52 PM

Not entirely true. He's also Gohan's mentor and pretty much his second dad.

The legend has returned.
Fedetropes Call me Blast, not Fedetropes from Doomed universe Since: Dec, 2016 Relationship Status: Shipping fictional characters
Call me Blast, not Fedetropes
#37554: Mar 3rd 2020 at 3:26:58 PM

...I can appreciate you didn't say real dad at least.

¡PONLE QUE DIGA!:"¡HUMONGOSAURIO HASTA LA MUERTE!"
Weirdguy149 Former King from Lumiose City Since: Jul, 2014 Relationship Status: I'd jump in front of a train for ya!
Former King
#37555: Mar 3rd 2020 at 3:29:19 PM

Well, he factually is not his real father.

The legend has returned.
Eriorguez Since: Jun, 2009
#37556: Mar 3rd 2020 at 4:24:34 PM

He's like an uncle. Down to kidnapping him, like his real uncle did.

Still, I'd like Piccolo to hold his own; Vegeta getting to Goku's level by doing similar things due to their shared biology, while Piccolo gets to a similar level by doing his own thing due to a very alien biology, and being actually 3 guys and thus having absurd potential. Hell, even if not to Goku's level, to Gohan's, so he can be more than his hype man.

Supersonic Warriors having him bring back his preencarnation dad, just to beat him up, force him to merge, then beat the crap out of Super Buu, always felt hilarious.

Edited by Eriorguez on Mar 3rd 2020 at 1:32:30 PM

Saiga Since: Feb, 2011 Relationship Status: Getting away with murder
#37557: Mar 3rd 2020 at 4:28:00 PM

Thing is, Piccolo isn't Goku, so comparing it so SS Goku Vs Freeza is flawed.

He got to humiliate Cell, which was pretty great. It's a pity Cell surpassed him soon after, I would have preferred to see Cell only do that after absorbing 17 (though it does give pay off to Cel absorbing the humans which is important).

Also, just because CELL decides that Gero wanted him to wipe out all life doesn't mean Gero wanted that. It's Cell. He's a sadistic monster. The reality is that Gero have up on Cell because the project was taking too long and Cell decided to find his own purpose after becoming Perfect.

Just reminiscing the discussion about why didn’t Gero give himself infinite energy if it was superior. The Doylist reason was laid out clearly, I was wondering about the Watsonian reason by finding the common thread. [up] throws that out completely.

There actually already IS an explanation - 17 notes that Gero made himself an energy absorption type instead of infinite, and says it must be because the infinite type is hard to control.

Some have just wrote this off as nonsense (Gero being unable to control himself?) But there's not much room for interpretation. Gero would not be able to control an infinite type body, even with his brain in it.

Which I guess would mean his brain would be sending commands that are being ignored.


Oh and as far as absorption Vs infinite energy goes - infinite energy was seen as clearly superior in-universe, but not viable because 16-18 were all unable to be used by Gero. Simply due to the sheer disparity of power - absorbing energy isn't good enough if your opponent is so strong draining a portion of their energy still doesn't close the gap.

HOWEVER, if the powers were more even, energy absorption would be pretty fucking good. They can't use ki blasts without powering you up, and even once they figure out the trick, the only solution is to handicap themselves. And that also means they need to fight in hand-to-hand, which increases the chance you'll be able to get handsy and give them the succ

If the powers started out more even than energy absorption could very quickly snowball into total dominance

Edited by Saiga on Mar 3rd 2020 at 10:32:50 PM

alekos23 Since: Mar, 2013
#37558: Mar 3rd 2020 at 4:35:15 PM

Actually Picollo being on the Androids level after training with Goku and Gohan was pretty weird come to think of it. Probably the biggest boost from actual training without Zenkai stuff or new transformations or just Saiyan shenanigans till Freeza decided four months are just what he needs.

Eriorguez Since: Jun, 2009
#37559: Mar 3rd 2020 at 4:45:01 PM

Piccolo being on Freeza's level as well; 2nd form was 25 times stronger than Nail, and Piccolo was a tenth of Nail or so before dying.

WillKeaton from Alberta, Canada Since: Jun, 2010
#37560: Mar 3rd 2020 at 5:10:30 PM

Energy absorption may also give the user the ability to increase their power level through that absorption.

Saiga Since: Feb, 2011 Relationship Status: Getting away with murder
#37561: Mar 3rd 2020 at 5:23:35 PM

[up] It does, but we saw in 19 Vs Vegeta and Gero vs Piccolo that it only goes so far - if your opponent is too powerful, they'll beat you before you can steal enough to level the field.

[up][up] & [up][up][up] Yeah those are both very weird, Vs Freeza at least has an explanation (and it's possible that Piccolo got some kind of freakish boost from his 6 days of training on Kaio's, as weird as THAT is) but for him to get strong enough to toss around Android 20 after off-screen training is just odd. That said, the Androids WERE really weak, maybe even more so than we imagined - base Vegeta is able to leave a boot-sized dent in 19's face, as well.

HandsomeRob Leader of the Holey Brotherhood from The land of broken records Since: Jan, 2015
Leader of the Holey Brotherhood
#37562: Mar 3rd 2020 at 5:26:58 PM

HOWEVER, if the powers were more even, energy absorption would be pretty fucking good. They can't use ki blasts without powering you up, and even once they figure out the trick, the only solution is to handicap themselves. And that also means they need to fight in hand-to-hand, which increases the chance you'll be able to get handsy and give them the succ

If the powers started out more even than energy absorption could very quickly snowball into total dominance

This is more or less what I said....though I finished my last sentence.tongue

But yeah, Energy Absorption was only bad because Namek and Trunks's warning meant they were all much stronger than Gero expected. Without that, he'd have won without a doubt. Because they would have been unable to use ki attacks, and with their strength greater or at least on par with Goku and company, melee would have been a death sentence. Namek was a massive Spanner in the Works for Gero.

As for him not being able to control an Infinite energy model if he made himself one....I mean, I would have stuck with the that sounds stupid idea, but now that I really think about it, knowing how the process was done (nanotechnology) it's likely Gero simply lacked the physical requirements for the process, and as such, the enhancements would have been sub-optimal for him compared to the Energy Absorption model...

...so hey. Turns out he would rebel against himself...or at least his body probably would have. Not that we all didn't already speculate that he wouldn't survive the process due to his age anyway.

One Strip! One Strip!
PushoverMediaCritic I'm sorry Tien, but I must go all out. from the Italy of America Since: Jul, 2015 Relationship Status: watch?v=dQw4w9WgXcQ
I'm sorry Tien, but I must go all out.
#37563: Mar 3rd 2020 at 5:28:08 PM

I like to imagine that 19 and 20 were weaker than Freeza. In terms of Power Levels, I think it's something like this:

  • 100% Freeza: 120,000,000

  • Android 19: 45,000,000

  • Android 20: 50,000,000

  • Android Arc Piccolo: 70,000,000

  • SS1 Vegeta: 300,000,000

  • SS1 Trunks: 240,000,000

  • Android 18: 370,000,000

  • Android 17: 400,000,000

Saiga Since: Feb, 2011 Relationship Status: Getting away with murder
#37564: Mar 3rd 2020 at 5:45:02 PM

I'm fairly sure that 19 and 20, before stealing energy, were waaaaay weaker than Freeza.

Nobody talks up their power at all, even though Freeza is still considered impressive as a benchmark - hell, God draws direct comparisons between Trunks beating Freeza and the strength of 17 & 18 for being able to beat him.

In terms of combat, they get wrecked by anyone who isn't Yamcha or having a heart attack, so they're certainly not that impressive.

[up] Trunks seems pretty high. He only had 8 months between his first arrival and the Android Arc (time travel!) and isn't noted to have improved a lot.

I'd say he's probably not much stronger than his first appearance.

Edited by Saiga on Mar 3rd 2020 at 11:48:26 PM

God_of_Awesome Since: Jan, 2001
#37565: Mar 3rd 2020 at 8:50:26 PM

So Gero went for ki absorption because ki attacks let you punch above your weight limit and that is specifically what he wanted to avoid?

Saiga Since: Feb, 2011 Relationship Status: Getting away with murder
#37566: Mar 3rd 2020 at 8:56:17 PM

Nope, the reason given is that the infinite energy type would be too difficult to control.

HandsomeRob Leader of the Holey Brotherhood from The land of broken records Since: Jan, 2015
Leader of the Holey Brotherhood
#37567: Mar 3rd 2020 at 9:01:42 PM

And you're ok with the given reason?

I mean, even though I just wrote a post about how it makes sense about the difficulty of control it with his old ass body, I still admit that it sounds kinda questionable that he was afraid he wouldn't be able to control himself.

I mean, if he put it into more solid terms (like his body wouldn't withstand the procedure...even though you'd expect taking out his own brain and implanting it in a new body would be more difficult), I could buy it, but the way it gets put still sounds strange.

One Strip! One Strip!
Saiga Since: Feb, 2011 Relationship Status: Getting away with murder
#37568: Mar 3rd 2020 at 9:37:52 PM

Yeah, I'm okay with that. It certainly beats not having a reason.

I already pointed out that the idea is a bit strange - especially because it overlaps with the issue that the infinite energy types were disobedient with him - but that's the only reason it feels weird. The premise of his brain being unable to control a robotic body isn't at all unusual in fiction that deals with cybernetics.

Moth13 Since: Sep, 2010
#37569: Mar 3rd 2020 at 9:42:16 PM

I think a really noticeably stupid reason is worse than just not bringing any attention to it.

Saiga Since: Feb, 2011 Relationship Status: Getting away with murder
#37570: Mar 3rd 2020 at 9:47:53 PM

I would agree, but I don't think it's stupid for the reasons I've mentioned.

LSBK Since: Sep, 2014
#37571: Mar 3rd 2020 at 10:29:44 PM

I get what Saiga is saying, and can buy it, but the phrasing does still sound weird. Maybe if they elaborated a bit more besides a few throwaway lines of dialogue but I guess it's not really that important.

PushoverMediaCritic I'm sorry Tien, but I must go all out. from the Italy of America Since: Jul, 2015 Relationship Status: watch?v=dQw4w9WgXcQ
I'm sorry Tien, but I must go all out.
#37572: Mar 3rd 2020 at 10:44:11 PM

It also raises the question of why we don't see 17 or 18 struggling with this.

Saiga Since: Feb, 2011 Relationship Status: Getting away with murder
#37573: Mar 3rd 2020 at 11:33:54 PM

Despite being a cyborg, I'd say Gero has more in common with 19 and 16 than 17 and 18 since his brain is all that's left of him, and the twins have very little mechanical parts at all.

God_of_Awesome Since: Jan, 2001
#37574: Mar 4th 2020 at 12:01:34 AM

Maybe power like 16’s requires a mechanical mind to control, what’s more hardwired into it so you can’t slot in a new personality.

WillKeaton from Alberta, Canada Since: Jun, 2010
#37575: Mar 4th 2020 at 9:04:17 AM

Wait, didn't the process of being turned into that type of android wipe out 17 and 18's memory? (For some reason.) I can see Gero wanting to avoid that fate. Unless Gero intentionally wiped their memories as a separate process from cyborgifying them.


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