Gonna have to explain that last part there.
A lot of Super certainly reads that way, with them not wanting to escalate the plots to the level such a buff would warrant, and so constantly trying to write around the fact that Goku and Vegeta could solve any problem in seconds if they chose in order to make the plots they do want work. Having their cake and keeping it too.
They didn't want Goku and Vegeta to start running roughshod over the setting's pantheon Asura style, so they had to keep handwaving reasons why mortals could reach that power on their own (Toei especially, with the Copies and Watagash, but not exclusively - Toriyama was the one behind Freeza) where Goku needed a special ritual to even get partway. Goku and Vegeta constantly have to sandbag in order to give the stories any tension, which results in no tension at all or things getting worse because they're stupid: the entire Zamasu arc happens because Goku and Vegeta don't get serious with Black until they've fought him enough that he becomes too strong to defeat easily. And yes, there's a degree to which that is in Goku's character to do, but there's a point where you're just using a character flaw as a crutch for complacent writing.
Looking back on it, a big problem with Super is that it rarely feels like there are any stakes. Some of the arcs literally have none on purpose, but even in the ones that are supposed to have them care more about giving us spectacular fights than making it feel like the characters are at risk (hence the TOP's constant "I'm out of energy! Nope, second/third/etc wind!" moments). The one time there was a plot with stakes, the actual ones in jeopardy were limited to an Expendable Alternate Universe.
And that ship sailed with Frieza.
Toriyama set up Frieza and the Ginyu Force as the almighty most powerful warriors in the entire universe, then proceeded to have Goku surpass them in the same arc. This decision, in and of itself, greatly limited what could reasonably done moving forward.
The combination of Frieza's established status in the universe mixed with Goku immediately surpassing him damaged the Serial Escalation. It meant you couldn't just have stories about "And then Goku met a STRONGER dude!" the way the series had always done before.
- Goku slaughters the Red Ribbon Army but then a stronger dude kicks his teeth in and Goku must defeat him.
- Goku meets a stronger dude at the tournament and must defeat him.
- A stronger dude split himself into good and evil parts, and Goku must defeat the evil one.
- An even stronger dude comes to Earth, and he's Goku's brother!
- There are even stronger dudes coming to Earth!
- We have to go to Namek, where there are stronger dudes serving a galactic conqueror!
- The galactic conqueror has called even yet stronger dudes as reinforcements!
- Goku must face the galactic conqueror, who is the Strongest Dude, Absolute Strongest, Bar None, there is nobody Stronger.
- ...and....
- ...then....?
After Frieza, Toriyama had to really work to justify increasing the Serial Escalation. Everyone suddenly had to have an excuse for why they're stronger than Strongest Dude Bar None. The androids are cybernetically enhanced with infinite energy generators. Cell is a mishmash of all the Strongest Dudes combined AND the infinite energy androids. Dabura's from a different universe. Majin Buu is a magical god-killing abomination and therefore didn't really count as "in the universe". The Kaioshins, Daikaioshin, and Beerus are literally gods. Etc. etc.
And for the two arcs remaining, it worked out okay. But then Dragon Ball came back. And Strongest Dude Bar None remained the elephant in the room, and the only way to get the elephant to leave the room was to kick things up to the god-tier so that Strongest Dude Bar None wasn't a factor anymore.
But now that means everything has to have a reason to be god-tier, which is arguably an even bigger elephant in the room. And Toriyama/Toei/Toyotaro kinda just wound up giving up on that.
My Tumblr. Currently side-by-side liveblogging Digimon Adventure, sub vs dub.If you think Toriyama has to deal with bullshit Serial Escalation, try getting into Saint Seiya. DBS pretty much inhereted that series's problem with Escalation, and yet Saint Seiya might still be worse to this day, and gets worse with each new installment Toei and Kuromada create.
Watch SymphogearShould've skipped doing Cell, Boo's reason for being the strongest is fine on it's own without Cell existing.
Because he doesn't have be that much stronger.
Rules of the Internet 45. Rule 45 is a lie. Check out my art if you notice.Mr Boo probably isn't that much stronger, but his magic and unusual body composition put him over Cell.
Evil Boo, Super Boo, Kid Buu, ETC, are definitely far greater then Cell, though.
Watch SymphogearHell, most of the villains post Frieza had things that gave them an advantage and didn't require them to be even more powerful.
Energy Draining (even if it was flawed), unlimited energy and having no Ki to sense; regeneration and being a martial arts technique clinic for Cell; regeneration again as well as being a bubblegum demon that can probably absorb a lot more damage than most dudes for Buu, and then later just being bug fuck nuts and going for Earth-Shattering Kaboom as your opening move.
But he still kept raising power levels and with all of them except for Buu, just raising their own power levels proved to be the solution (though Full Power Super Saiyan was something a little different).
One Strip! One Strip!I mean, neither of those things are ignoring power levels. Humans vs the Ginyu Force is based on the premise that everyone got super ripped training with King Kai. Yes, it's goofy and unbelievable that they got that powerful, but it is an explanation and ultimately the power level escalation was so wild at that point that it didn't matter if the humans were Ginyu Force level because they would still be left in the dust.
Krillin defeating Gohan is also a ring out thanks to a surprise attack, not "Krillin overpowers Gohan because fuck power levels". Like, for better or worse, surprise attacks have been a long established thing at this point in the series, and it's not like it did actual damage.
This might be an unpopular opinion, but I'm glad that Freeza was clearly the strongest in the universe and future threats needed a reason to be stronger than that.
I know people have said space is a water concept by starting out with the best, but I prefer that over going through multiple arcs of fighting progressively stronger guys. That gets really tiresome, and with the series escalation it'd be a little absurd for Goku to become super duper powerful to best this strong alien guy... And then another strong alien guy shows up who is more super duper powerful, but not as much as the next alien guy etc - like an endless treadmill.
Actually, Dragon Ball has been mocked for being an endless treadmill already, as many fans have the perception that the series is constantly just introducing stronger enemies who were around the whole time. This may be influenced by the movies and filler, which throw in characters like Bojack or Pikkon as just... Dudes who have been around while being many times more powerful than Freeza.
But the fact that Dragon Ball clearly says 'this guy is the strongest' and comes up with reasons for stronger characters to exist after that is something I really appreciate. Sure, if you cut all mentions of Freeza being strongest in the universe then you could freely introduce your Bojacks, El Hermano etc - but it gets old pretty quickly to have successively stronger enemies show up with 'they are also a powerful alien, but moreso'.
I find it really helps suspension of disbelief, and makes the Power Escalation more acceptable to keep introducing new enemy types/concepts to explain the escalation. Otherwise it feels like Freeza was just a weak alien once he's been upstaged by multiple other aliens, and a lot of power ups feel insignificant if they end up being invalidated by the same thing they were used to beat.
Dragon Ball tends to use the best of whatever thing they're introducing, which I think is actually for the best. The parts on Earth kinda did this, with Roshi being introduced as the strongest martial artist, and the stronger fighters introduced afterward were somewhat justified (Tenshinhan was a newcomer who surpassed the old generation) while others are kind of strange. But from there, we meet the strongest Saiyan that ever lived, the strongest mortal in the universe, the strongest of Gero's creations, the strongest person in Demon World, the strongest candy etc. It varies whether we get an arc that leads up to the strongest X or we just meet then first, but we don't spend multiple arcs starting with the weakest androids and building our way up.
Even in the post-BOG era, many expected the revelation of 12 universes to mean Beerus was the weakest GOD and Universe 7 the weakest universe (due to fake spoilers) which obviously was not the case for either. And I'm glad for that - it'd be pretty asinine for U 7's top fighters to be considered weak after everything they'd been through, and turning Beerus into a stepping stone would be a waste.
Even in Super, the first time we deal with another universe, we meet the strongest of that universe (universe 6, Hit). When we have a multi-universe tournament, we meet the strongest fighter in all universes.
I'm very glad we didn't get something absurd like 'first we go to universe 6, where the weakest fighters are stronger than Golden Freeza' or visiting each universe one-by-one in ascending order of strength. I appreciate that they aren't so coy.
So after they decided to end the series, they removed the end bit of Episode 60 part 3 which said there would be a season four.
Which means that, not including the epilogue (which ends with Bulma saying she was "in for a pounding"), the series ends with the Krillin Owned Counter, my favorite character from the original series but most disliked running joke, being reset to 0.
So the closure point of the main series timeline is Krillin finally getting his due, and 18 (another one of my favorites in both the original and this series), being very happy. That's nice.
So my new headcanon to ensure that everyone in the series gets a happy ending, pun intended, is to actually have Yamcha go to Future Trunks' timeline with him.
Eh. Krillin deserves it I'd say.
And 18 seemed happy too so I'm kinda fine with that.
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I admit, it was nice that they came up with reasons for these new strong dudes showing up. Frieza is (or was) without question the strongest mortal being around. Even Beerus acknowledged that.
Although it's technically still possible for guys like Bojack to appear if they wanted. Like, Gero created the Androids through science; why not reveal a random race did (or is doing since Frieza is back rampaging again thanks to Goku and company) the same. They performed experiments on their locals to create a group strong enough to challenge Frieza and his empire and got destroyed by their own creations or something.
Plus there were how many years between Frieza's Sword induced death and his permanent revival at the end of the Tournament of Power? Plenty of time for new players to come out of the wood work because Frieza isn't around to stomp them before they can become strong enough to be a threat to him (which I assume was something he did quite a bit of considering the Saiyans).
One Strip! One Strip!Still, remember that GINYU was seen as the second strongest in the Universe, and he peaked at 1/1000th of Freeza's full power. He was also 100 times stronger than Raditz, who, despite his joke status, was a standard issue of Freeza's force.
Hell, Vegeta, when he arrived on Earth, only had above him Zarbon, Dodoria, Nail, 4 of the Ginyu, and then Cold and Freeza. He and CUI were tied as the 9th strongest mortals in the universe for all we know.
Heh, the issue is once again Freeza being absurd. We can understand base Goku hadn't surpassed Freeza by when he met Beerus; seeing Super Saiyan 3 is a 400x multiplier, well, Kid Buu, who was on par with Super Saiyan 3 Goku, wouldn't be 400 times stronger than Freeza.
The jump from Ginyu to Freeza is steeper than the one from Freeza to Kid Buu. And Freeza is to Ginyu what ROSHI at that point in time is to Ginyu.
Yeah, the lack of Freeza-tier fighters isn't just due to Freeza preemptively eliminating threats, it's mainly due to Freeza's level of power being absurdly rare.
Another Ginyu popping up would be notable. Another Freeza would be exceptional. Someone tens of times more powerful than that? Someone who can outpace the heroes' absurb gains to threaten them? It's not unthinkable, but it would stretch Suspenion Of Disbelief to use it multiple times.
It absolutely is a 'fuck power levels' scene, because it still requires Kuririn to be able to fight hand-to-hand with Gohan without Gohan just lightly tapping him unconscious. Yes, they make it clear that Gohan is stronger than Kuririn, but they massively undersell how much stronger he is or the entire scene would fall apart.
Gohan also proved that he could deal with the exact same form of sneak attack (blinded + can't sense ki) in much worse conditions (while also poisoned) against a stronger opponent - so yeah, power levels were pretty fucked for Kuririn's move to actually work, and Super had to ignore what they previously established about Gohan's senses to be able to do it.
Edited by Saiga on Feb 13th 2020 at 1:29:10 AM
I like that Cell was only as strong as he was because the heroes were strong. Cell could not have existed without them. And Buu was stronger than Freeza, but that was a long time in the past. Freeza was the strongest guy of his day, but Buu was one of the strongest of all time. So I can tolerate a few guys stronger than Freeza. Any more than that, and it really stretches believability.
Saint seiya is weird in power escalation in that it said just bullshit things that dosent be needed to just said "those duedes are stronger".
Now on topic, I will said is why I like part of cell arc is because Cell weaker and the drama is trying to stop HIM for become stronger, meanwhile Boo as treat is a thing by how non convenciona is fighting style is.
Meanwhile beerus for me is boring because his just "MORE powerfull" he feel like friza but boring.
"My Name is Bolt, Bolt Crank and I dont care if you believe or not"Well, they are probably also absurdly rare due to Buu. Who knows how many worlds with vast potential for powerful fighters he destroyed during his original rampage.
....Moro too. And of course Beerus.
Wow, that's at least four dudes who have been going around wiping out worlds for one reason or another. No wonder Frieza tier fighters are so rare. He had the good luck to be the only one that powerful born in who knows how long, and then he got smart and decided to keep it that way.
U7 just has really bad luck with a God of Destruction who'll nuke you for shitty reasons, and either sleeps through threats he should be dealing with or makes dudes like Frieza do his job for him.
And as long as Frieza didn't rock the boat with him, he never had to worry about being Hakai'ed so him being King of the (mortal) mountain makes sense...at least until Buu woke up.
....I would have loved to see Babidi's forces vs Frieza's now that I think about it, though that likely would have ended with the former being mind controlled by the latter...or killing him. Depends who was quicker on the draw.
One Strip! One Strip!![]()
Honestly, I really liked Beerus because he didn't have regeneration. Cell kept using regeneration to bullshit his way out of increasingly more extreme injuries, and Buu basically has two modes: perfectly healthy or dead. That made the very act of fighting them with martial arts and battle choreography seem kind of useless at times. I'm very glad at the franchise's return to villains who actually take damage, that was one thing that really annoyed me about the later parts of Z.
Outside of one moment, Boo's more consistent then Cell.
Rules of the Internet 45. Rule 45 is a lie. Check out my art if you notice.Cell is kinda weird for a Dragon Ball character, because most Dragon Ball characters tend to be bricks. As your battle power rises, your strength, speed, agility, durability, energy output, etc. all rise together. Because your battle power is the combination of those things, but you train all of those things in the same generalized Training Sequences or get all of those things buffed in the same Power Level Boost moment.
Dragon Ball will occasionally break out a character like Burter who is the "fastest in the universe" but then that character gets shitstomped by someone with a higher power level. Goku has a higher power level than Burter, Goku is therefore faster than Burter, and Goku crushes Burter. "Fastest in the universe" doesn't actually mean anything.
But then there's Cell. Part of Cell's powerset is the combination of Frieza's extreme survivability with Piccolo's regeneration. But you can't show that off unless you blast chunks off of him. So the end result is that Cell's durability seems way below what a character of his power level should have.
Vegeta's not supposed to be able to hold a candle to Perfect Cell. But Vegeta can obliterate him with Final Flash. Goku's also not supposed to be able to hold a candle to Perfect Cell, but Goku can also obliterate him with a fully charged Kamehameha. Both characters are implied by their effectiveness to have actually been able to kill Perfect Cell if they can just aim their shot right, but they're also not supposed to have any chance of beating Perfect Cell whatsoever.
There's a trend in media that having regeneration as a power makes you a shittier fighter, because the creator needs to show you getting grievously wounded in order to show off that power. Wolverine gets shitstomped way more often than Cyclops because we only get to see Wolverine's healing powers when he gets shitstomped. The better you heal, the more grievous injuries that would kill anyone else you can be shown sustaining!
Thus, we have Cell's weirdly low durability when throwing down with fighters he can manage with ease. Nappa fights guys way weaker than him, tanks their blasts, and comes through with a few scratches. But Cell does the same thing and has his entire upper torso blown off his body. Because Cell can survive that and Nappa can't.
Edited by TobiasDrake on Feb 13th 2020 at 8:17:37 AM
My Tumblr. Currently side-by-side liveblogging Digimon Adventure, sub vs dub.Cell was also a war of attrition. Super Saiyan 2 being a 2x boost and utterly outclassing him shows it, Cell is only slighty stronger than our heroes.
I mean, Raditz was roughly 3 times stronger than Piccolo and Goku. Them getting a boost comparable to what SSJ 2 did for Gohan wouldn't let them beat him.
And, well, Raditz was dispatched by a beam from somebody a third of his power. So yeah, concentrating Ki lets you punch above your power class, hence Cell losing chunks when Vegeta pulls a massive beam, or when Goku, who was able to entertain him despite being outclassed, fired a point blank, full power Kamehameha at his face.
Freeza wasn't losing chunks because he was 40 times stronger than Goku, who was the closest thing to a match he faced.
Vegeta, however, tanked a Kamehameha from someone who was nearly 2x his own power level and came away scuffed up and angry.
If that had been Cell losing the Beam Struggle to Kaioken x4 Goku, he would have come down with half his body blown off and done his whole "BOOM, regen" thing.
Vegeta has kind of the opposite dynamic from Cell going. Where Cell gets chunks blasted off of him by weaker fighters to show off his regen powers, Vegeta's main role is to be a punching bag, so he is hard as shit to actually kill even when he is thoroughly outclassed.
Vegeta put all of his upgrade points into boosting his HP meter. Cell, meanwhile, dump-statted durability and sold those points to buy 1-Ups.
Edited by TobiasDrake on Feb 13th 2020 at 9:52:13 AM
My Tumblr. Currently side-by-side liveblogging Digimon Adventure, sub vs dub.
