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PushoverMediaCritic I'm sorry Tien, but I must go all out. from the Italy of America Since: Jul, 2015 Relationship Status: watch?v=dQw4w9WgXcQ
I'm sorry Tien, but I must go all out.
#36576: Dec 20th 2019 at 3:07:56 PM

Another thing that's anime filler: Vegeta attacking Final Form Freeza. In the manga, he just throws one blast that Freeza kicks back and immediately gives up and bursts into tears.

HandsomeRob Leader of the Holey Brotherhood from The land of broken records Since: Jan, 2015
Leader of the Holey Brotherhood
#36577: Dec 20th 2019 at 4:19:23 PM

Him attacking continually is better.

It’s not like Vegeta to give up so easily, especially after barely trying.

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Moth13 Since: Sep, 2010
#36578: Dec 20th 2019 at 4:49:25 PM

Genuinely surprised Solar Flare didn't make it on the list.

I actually think having Destructo Disk shatter against Cell is a really good way to hype Cell up, by taking the technique the seemingly had no upper limit and having it do nothing, it sells that Perfect Cell really is of a different class than anything we've seen before.

That said, I also totally understand the people who say "screw that it doesn't count", because I like Destructo Disk being a move with no upper limit.

Edited by Moth13 on Dec 20th 2019 at 7:49:57 AM

wanderlustwarrior Role Model from Where Gods Belong Since: Jun, 2009 Relationship Status: What's love got to do with it?
Role Model
#36579: Dec 20th 2019 at 5:06:36 PM

There's no need to have it shatter when be can just get decapitated, then calmly stick his head back on.

But then again, when was the first instance of Cell's regeneration being shown? Before or after Krillin tried?

terumokou Pitiable and Illegally Dumped Object from In a bamboo forest full of bunnies, California Since: Sep, 2013 Relationship Status: Mu
Pitiable and Illegally Dumped Object
#36580: Dec 20th 2019 at 5:07:49 PM

Was it when 16 pulled his tail off?

Burning love!
Saiga Since: Feb, 2011 Relationship Status: Getting away with murder
#36581: Dec 20th 2019 at 5:08:16 PM

When 16 pulled his tail off.[nja]

But there would still be a point in having it shatter on Cell - it'd be a feat of strength we hadn't seen in the series before. A kind of milestone spread across multiple arcs, which is always neat.

Edited by Saiga on Dec 20th 2019 at 11:08:28 PM

alekos23 Since: Mar, 2013
#36582: Dec 20th 2019 at 5:12:30 PM

if you cut off Cell's head which part would regenerate

I'm going with torso but head would be nastier visually and that sounds more interesting

would the Cell head still be alive because Freeza and have a chat with Cell 2.0

WillKeaton from Alberta, Canada Since: Jun, 2010
#36583: Dec 20th 2019 at 5:17:33 PM

There was that bit where Trunks broke the Piccolo statue. In the anime, Piccolo's head doesn't come off, and in the panel from the manga, it doesn't look like Piccolo's head came off there either.

I love Trunks' reaction to seeing Piccolo regenerate. He probably still has nightmares about that.

Edited by WillKeaton on Dec 20th 2019 at 6:39:15 AM

HandsomeRob Leader of the Holey Brotherhood from The land of broken records Since: Jan, 2015
Leader of the Holey Brotherhood
#36584: Dec 20th 2019 at 5:46:24 PM

As I recall Trunks didn't actually see Piccolo regenerate. He realized what he did and went to find Piccolo's body and just found his left over pieces, but Piccolo had regrown his limbs offscreen.

I'm a little torn about the Kienzan/Destructo Disk shatters against Cell scene.

It does make it clear Cell's in a different league when a technique that should cut through anyone just breaks against him (even Frieza had to dodge it), but the technique already gets sold short due to everyone dodging it too, and what they did in the anime just makes it look worse.

The choice has its ups and downs is all I'll say.

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Weirdguy149 Former King from Lumiose City Since: Jul, 2014 Relationship Status: I'd jump in front of a train for ya!
Former King
#36585: Dec 20th 2019 at 5:49:36 PM

I feel like that works well for Cell, who's gotten so cocky at this point that he feels like he can tank anything.

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HandsomeRob Leader of the Holey Brotherhood from The land of broken records Since: Jan, 2015
Leader of the Holey Brotherhood
#36586: Dec 20th 2019 at 6:21:55 PM

Which sets up the Final Flash perfectly.

In that, Vegeta proved him wrong at least.

Hell, if Cell and Vegeta's positions had been a little different and the latter had been able to hit the former with all of his blast instead of having to angle it, Vegeta would've actually ended the threat of Cell right then and there.

I think even Cell knew it, even if he never would have admitted it.

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TobiasDrake (•̀⤙•́) (Edited uphill both ways) Relationship Status: Arm chopping is not a love language!
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#36587: Dec 20th 2019 at 9:02:02 PM

Not only can Cell regenerate (making him tanking the Kienzan totally unnecessary) but.

Like.

Is this really necessary? This is kinda the reason why the human fighters mostly stay out of the action after Namek. Like. Does the audience really need to see Cell flexing on Krillin? Is anybody seriously going, "Krillin's got this, you guys. I know Vegeta and Trunks have failed, but there's still hope. Cell can't possibly stand against the incredible might of Krillin!"

Krillin's place in the pecking order is already so firmly established that Cell could take him out of the fight by breathing really hard in his direction and fans would nod and go, "That's about right." The Cell Games skip straight to Goku as the first and second-to-last contender for a reason. Cell's already rolled Piccolo, Vegeta, and Trunks at this point and there is zero ambiguity about how he stacks up to anyone else.

Edited by TobiasDrake on Dec 20th 2019 at 10:04:08 AM

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Saiga Since: Feb, 2011 Relationship Status: Getting away with murder
#36588: Dec 20th 2019 at 9:18:25 PM

Is anybody seriously going, "Krillin's got this, you guys. I know Vegeta and Trunks have failed, but there's still hope. Cell can't possibly stand against the incredible might of Krillin!"

No, no-one is thinking that. But that's also got nothing to do with the point of the scene.

fredhot16 Don't want to leave but cannot pretend from Baton Rogue, Louisiana. Since: Jan, 2015 Relationship Status: Too sexy for my shirt
Don't want to leave but cannot pretend
#36589: Dec 20th 2019 at 9:22:46 PM

So what was the point, if I may ask?

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TobiasDrake (•̀⤙•́) (Edited uphill both ways) Relationship Status: Arm chopping is not a love language!
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#36590: Dec 20th 2019 at 9:27:55 PM

The point is to establish how powerful Cell is by having him tank Krillin's ultimate attack.

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Saiga Since: Feb, 2011 Relationship Status: Getting away with murder
#36591: Dec 20th 2019 at 9:38:20 PM

Specifically, something that hasn't been tanked before even by being much more powerful than Kuririn and something that wasn't even known to be possible.

TobiasDrake (•̀⤙•́) (Edited uphill both ways) Relationship Status: Arm chopping is not a love language!
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#36592: Dec 20th 2019 at 9:59:19 PM

Thus not only defeating the whole purpose of the Kienzan but also trying to prove Cell a badass by having him flex on Krillin, the weakest person present in the scene by multiple orders of magnitude.

Might as well go beat up Yajirobe while he's at it.

Edited by TobiasDrake on Dec 20th 2019 at 11:00:38 AM

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fasoman1996 Google "big ears" from Argentina (A.K.A. Naziland) Since: Dec, 2014 Relationship Status: Baby don't hurt me!
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#36593: Dec 20th 2019 at 10:03:00 PM

At least should have let the attack cut his head and let cell re-attach it like nothing happened

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ultimatepheer Since: Mar, 2011
#36594: Dec 20th 2019 at 10:05:15 PM

That scene could have been pretty funny, too. Just have the destructo-disk go straight through, only for Cell to heal so fast that he doesn't even realize he was decapitated for a second until a few moments later when he sees the disc in front of him.

Saiga Since: Feb, 2011 Relationship Status: Getting away with murder
#36595: Dec 20th 2019 at 10:06:07 PM

[up][up][up] Kuririn's weakness has nothing to do with this. You yourself made the argument that flexing on Kuririn means nothing, so it has no impact on this.

As for the Kienzan's purpose... having an upper limit doesn't defeat the purpose of it. It can still hit above Kuririn's weight, which was the purpose of the technique. It doesn't need to be literally infinitely powerful for that to be true.

The Kienzan wasn't even described as being able to cut anything! Only Freeza's version was described that way, and Kuririn had already been using it before that point without needing that lofty claim to support it.

Going further, Kuririn had stopped using the Kienzan in the manga at this point. It's not a bad time to have it be surpassed by something.

Edited by Saiga on Dec 21st 2019 at 4:09:39 AM

TobiasDrake (•̀⤙•́) (Edited uphill both ways) Relationship Status: Arm chopping is not a love language!
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#36596: Dec 20th 2019 at 10:14:24 PM

Krillin's weakness has everything to do with it.

This scene exists for one reason and one reason only: to show off how Cell's Perfect Form has brought him up to the level of the baddest ass around. Which it does quite aptly by having him trash Vegeta and Trunks in their Super Saiyan Grade 2 and 3 forms - at the time, the most powerful fighters bar none.

That does its job rather well. "Cell is more powerful than KRILLIN!" adds absolutely nothing of value to a scene in which Cell demolishes the new-and-improved Super Saiyans like it's no big deal.

Flexing on Krillin at this point in the series has no purpose.

Edited by TobiasDrake on Dec 20th 2019 at 11:17:42 AM

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Moth13 Since: Sep, 2010
#36597: Dec 20th 2019 at 10:15:27 PM

Remember that Cell flexing on Krillin already happens in the manga. Adding the Destructo Disk part takes something that wasn't impressive and adds some flair to it.

TobiasDrake (•̀⤙•́) (Edited uphill both ways) Relationship Status: Arm chopping is not a love language!
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#36598: Dec 20th 2019 at 10:19:35 PM

In the manga, Cell just drops Krillin in one kick and that's the end of that.

Short, concise, and to the point. Because the manga knows that there's really nothing to debate about whether Cell can beat up Krillin. Of course he can. Why waste time?

Edited by TobiasDrake on Dec 20th 2019 at 11:22:03 AM

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Saiga Since: Feb, 2011 Relationship Status: Getting away with murder
#36599: Dec 20th 2019 at 10:32:33 PM

Cell is more powerful than KRILLIN!"

Not what the scene signifies, please stop repeating this argument that no-one is making.

Like Moth pointed out, Cell does already beat up Kuririn and that has nothing to do with the Kienzan.

TobiasDrake (•̀⤙•́) (Edited uphill both ways) Relationship Status: Arm chopping is not a love language!
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#36600: Dec 20th 2019 at 10:47:07 PM

Like I said, Cell just drops Krillin in one kick and moves on. The manga doesn't make a thing of it.

Moves like the Kienzan or the Taiyoken or the Kikoho serve a specific purpose: they allow a weaker character to punch above his weight class if the writer wants them to. They give weaker characters options for participating in fights well beyond their actual ability.

Krillin's able to threaten Nappa and Frieza with his Kienzan even though he doesn't have a snowball's chance in hell of actually beating them at arm-wrestling due to their immense power. That's the Kienzan's job: give Krillin something that he can break out any time Toriyama decides he wants to give Krillin a role fighting someone he has no business fighting.

It's not impressive for stronger characters to brute force their way through those options, because literally the only function of those options is to give weaker characters something that stronger characters can't brute force through. Putting in a scene where the Kienzan breaks on Cell's neck means that the Kienzan doesn't work anymore. It means that the Kienzan will never allow Krillin to punch above his weight class again. It means that the Kienzan no longer serves any purpose as an attack.

It closes the door on storytelling options while opening up nothing new. We lose the ability for Krillin to participate in combat and, in exchange, we find out that Cell is totes strong you guys, like, so much so that weak characters such as Krillin are no match for him. It's a negative contribution to the story; one that eliminates tools from the writer's toolbelt while adding nothing.

Imagine if Dodoria had brute forced the Taiyoken on Namek. His eyes were so powerful that Krillin couldn't blind them. The Taiyoken has been defeated by Dodoria's power level. It will never work on powerful fighters ever again.

You don't just lose Gohan and Krillin's escape from Dodoria. You also lose Krillin's guerilla fight with Second Form Frieza, buying time for Dende to heal Gohan. And you lose Cell's escape from Piccolo. You can't use the Taiyoken to choreograph fights anymore. It's been defeated by power levels. It no longer serves a purpose.

When a move's specific function is giving weaker characters an option to bypass power levels as needed by the writer, there is no value in having those moves be overtaken by power levels.

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