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Dragon Ball Z Abridged

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ultimatepheer Since: Mar, 2011
#36451: Dec 16th 2019 at 3:54:45 PM

The way I see it, Kid Buu was pure, sure, but he wasn't good.

When Gohan reflected it, he was just a scared kid- he didn't want to hurt anyone, he didn't want to fight, he just wanted to save people from, let's be honest, a pair of invading alien monsters. Kid Buu, meanwhile, enjoyed and outright reveled in killing people and wrecking shit.

fasoman1996 Google "big ears" from Argentina (A.K.A. Naziland) Since: Dec, 2014 Relationship Status: Baby don't hurt me!
Google "big ears"
#36452: Dec 16th 2019 at 3:56:00 PM

We are kind of ignoring that Freeza momentarily could hold the spirit bomb back as well. And he survived the thing and he sure as hell is pretty fucking evil.

Android 21 too but i think that might not count

Uni cat
Saiga Since: Feb, 2011 Relationship Status: Getting away with murder
#36453: Dec 16th 2019 at 4:02:35 PM

The whole 'pure of heart' thing might not even be about the Genki Dana itself.

While Kuririn was trying to aim the attack at Vegeta, Kaio told him to focus on Vegeta's evil ki and 'lock on' to it.

Then Goku tells Gohan he can bounce it back because he doesn't have an evil ki.

So it could be entirely unrelated to the properties of the Genki Dana and something that is done just through ki control.

Also, it doesn't rule out people with an evil ki being able to hold back the blast with strength. It just means non-evil people can bounce it back completely unharmed.

What Freeza and Boo did is nothing like Gohan - Gohan was faaaaar weaker than the Genki Dama, but it bounced right off him, whereas Freeza and Boo struggled to push it back and in Freeza's case the attack wasn't even strong enough to kill him!

fasoman1996 Google "big ears" from Argentina (A.K.A. Naziland) Since: Dec, 2014 Relationship Status: Baby don't hurt me!
Google "big ears"
#36454: Dec 16th 2019 at 4:05:21 PM

I can't recall if Omega Shenron was able to also push it back but then again i can't hardly recall anything about GT.

Uni cat
alekos23 Since: Mar, 2013
terumokou Pitiable and Illegally Dumped Object from In a bamboo forest full of bunnies, California Since: Sep, 2013 Relationship Status: Mu
Pitiable and Illegally Dumped Object
#36456: Dec 16th 2019 at 4:25:41 PM

As usual yes. If you can tolerate it, 3.5 is on their Twitch channel.

Burning love!
WillKeaton from Alberta, Canada Since: Jun, 2010
#36457: Dec 16th 2019 at 5:08:39 PM

And Buu was able to push back against the Spirit Bomb as well. It didn't overpower him until Goku got his strength back and was able to push harder.

HandsomeRob Leader of the Holey Brotherhood from The land of broken records Since: Jan, 2015
Leader of the Holey Brotherhood
#36458: Dec 16th 2019 at 5:16:08 PM

So, hearing them bring it up, and remembering our own discussions about it, do you guys think Goku not having a single technique he came up with himself and his arsenal being made up entirely of things he learned (or outright stole) from other characters was something deliberate on Toriyama's part, or just a thing that happened?

One Strip! One Strip!
Moth13 Since: Sep, 2010
#36459: Dec 16th 2019 at 5:19:57 PM

I don't think he was trying to say Goku is uncreative for doing it, I think it's something done to hype up Goku. "He was able to copy the technique after seeing it once!" is done several times as a way of saying "this guy is a master at martial arts".

fasoman1996 Google "big ears" from Argentina (A.K.A. Naziland) Since: Dec, 2014 Relationship Status: Baby don't hurt me!
Google "big ears"
#36460: Dec 16th 2019 at 5:33:22 PM

But do the Kamehameha, Kaoiken and Spirit Bomb count a stolen techniques?

He was taught those by his respective mentor. And even the Instant Transmission too so he hasn't really stolen a technique if you think about it.

Wait, the kamehameha really was stolen tongue

Uni cat
slimcoder The Head of the Hydra Since: May, 2013
The Head of the Hydra
#36461: Dec 16th 2019 at 5:35:13 PM

If it’s taught then it’s learned not stolen.

"I am Alpharius. This is a lie."
WillKeaton from Alberta, Canada Since: Jun, 2010
#36462: Dec 16th 2019 at 5:43:22 PM

And then there's the Solar Flare, which Tien created. Goku used it against Vegeta, but I don't think Tien feels any ill will towards him for that. Goku probably has his blessing to use it. Heck Krillin used it a bunch, and he doesn't have Goku's ability to see a move used once and then be able to replicate it, which makes me think that Tien taught Krilin the move that year they were training together. (Actually, I can think of two years they trained together, once in prep for the World Martial Arts Tournament where they fought Piccolo Jr., then they did it again in preparation for the Saiyans.)

Was the technique for flying something that Crane hermit invented, or did Tien invent that too? Because if it's the former, that would be a technique that people use, without the consent of the guy who created it.

Edited by WillKeaton on Dec 16th 2019 at 6:48:08 AM

HandsomeRob Leader of the Holey Brotherhood from The land of broken records Since: Jan, 2015
Leader of the Holey Brotherhood
#36463: Dec 16th 2019 at 5:47:00 PM

Well, yeah. I said learned or stole in my post.

Also, while Goku's ability to mimic techniques after seeing them once is impressive (up until it's revealed that as a Saiyan, being able to do so is a natural ability of his), isn't the measure of a true master coming up with something of their own.

Roshi and King Kai invented the Kamehameha and the Kaioken respectively. True, Roshi needed fifty years to do so, and King Kai was never able to master his own technique, but still.

Even Vegeta has his own attacks even if they are just different levels of Kamehame Hadoken (Beam Meister General folks!).

I'm shocked Toriyama never gave Goku a single original attack of his own...then again, Naruto doesn't have any original techniques. Neither does Yusuke.

Luffy is full of original techniques however. He both learns and innovates.

One Strip! One Strip!
PushoverMediaCritic I'm sorry Tien, but I must go all out. from the Italy of America Since: Jul, 2015 Relationship Status: watch?v=dQw4w9WgXcQ
I'm sorry Tien, but I must go all out.
#36464: Dec 16th 2019 at 5:51:00 PM

up until it's revealed that as a Saiyan, being able to do so is a natural ability of his

I don't think it is. Tenshinhan also had that ability, and I don't think Vegeta ever used it outside of learning how to sense ki (which he did over the course of a couple months).

WillKeaton from Alberta, Canada Since: Jun, 2010
#36465: Dec 16th 2019 at 5:54:28 PM

Didn't Vegeta use Krillin's Destructo Disc to chop off Gohan's tail? I'm not sure if that was Vegeta copying the attack or he already knew a similar attack. (As an aside, I'm pretty sure Frieza's stuffed crust pizzas were not based on the Destructo Disc, because they were a different colour and behaved differently, and that he just happened to know an attack that was also a cutting disc.)

PushoverMediaCritic I'm sorry Tien, but I must go all out. from the Italy of America Since: Jul, 2015 Relationship Status: watch?v=dQw4w9WgXcQ
I'm sorry Tien, but I must go all out.
#36466: Dec 16th 2019 at 6:01:03 PM

Okay, that's fair, I forgot about that.

Moth13 Since: Sep, 2010
#36467: Dec 16th 2019 at 6:11:51 PM

Majin Buu also got the "he's smart so he can copy techniques" hype. I'll never not laugh at how he copies not just Goku's Kamehameha, but also Vegeta's special technique... of shooting a gazillion ki blasts.

Edited by Moth13 on Dec 16th 2019 at 9:12:29 AM

Soble Since: Dec, 2013
#36468: Dec 16th 2019 at 6:15:01 PM

Freeza momentarily could hold the spirit bomb back as well. And he survived the thing and he sure as hell is pretty fucking evil.

Establishing a ruling government over the wildness and vastness of a freaking universe that is "ruled over" by a loose pantheon of gods and a temperamental Egyptian cat, overseen by a toddler who cares not for who lives and who dies isn't what I'd consider evil.

Having self-improvement goals that top out at immortality, stomping out a warrior race who are more inclined to win a challenging battle than eliminate a threat to an innocent species, and a bunch of isolationist plant-people who hoard a magical wish-granting dragon all to themselves - is not what I would consider evil.

Killing his own henchmen isn't evil either. I mean, who cares about them? They work for Space Napohitler and practice choreographed dance routines in his honor. The bastards.

Frieza is practically Space Jesus when you get right down to it. He even came back from the dead. Twice. In one of these moments a literal angel restored his life.

And as my final bit of evidence - the Spirit Bomb, a god-given technique designed for destroying evil, didn't kill him. It tore Vegeta's sh-t up. It tore Buu's sh-t up. Frieza survived it with some bruises.

-snaps fingers in four different directions-

Edited by Soble on Dec 16th 2019 at 6:23:09 AM

I'M MR. MEESEEKS, LOOK AT ME!
fasoman1996 Google "big ears" from Argentina (A.K.A. Naziland) Since: Dec, 2014 Relationship Status: Baby don't hurt me!
Google "big ears"
#36469: Dec 16th 2019 at 6:17:40 PM

[up] He killed Krillin.

That is unforgivable

Uni cat
Weirdguy149 Former King from Lumiose City Since: Jul, 2014 Relationship Status: I'd jump in front of a train for ya!
Former King
#36470: Dec 16th 2019 at 6:25:20 PM

But it was forgivable. Everyone who killed Krillin got redeemed in their next lives.

The legend has returned.
Soble Since: Dec, 2013
#36471: Dec 16th 2019 at 6:28:17 PM

It was also self-defense! Krillin mutilated Frieza earlier and was an accomplice to the murders of several of Frieza's staff.

I'M MR. MEESEEKS, LOOK AT ME!
terumokou Pitiable and Illegally Dumped Object from In a bamboo forest full of bunnies, California Since: Sep, 2013 Relationship Status: Mu
Pitiable and Illegally Dumped Object
#36472: Dec 16th 2019 at 6:35:18 PM

[up][up]Maybe we should check and see if Freeza dies and gets reincarnated into someone good. God knows it worked for Piccolo and Uub.

Theory is still contested with Super 17 though.

Burning love!
randomness4 Ghost '11 from The Land of Inconvenience Since: Sep, 2011
Ghost '11
#36473: Dec 16th 2019 at 6:36:37 PM

[up][up]Humiliated Freezer?

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fredhot16 Don't want to leave but cannot pretend from Baton Rogue, Louisiana. Since: Jan, 2015 Relationship Status: Too sexy for my shirt
Don't want to leave but cannot pretend
#36474: Dec 16th 2019 at 6:47:31 PM

I don't think Tambourine got a new lease in life.

Trans rights are human rights. TV Tropes is not a place for bigotry, cruelty, or dickishness, no matter who or their position.
terumokou Pitiable and Illegally Dumped Object from In a bamboo forest full of bunnies, California Since: Sep, 2013 Relationship Status: Mu
Pitiable and Illegally Dumped Object
#36475: Dec 16th 2019 at 6:58:47 PM

Ah crap forgot it was Tambourine and not King Piccolo.

Burning love!

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