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HandsomeRob Leader of the Holey Brotherhood from The land of broken records Since: Jan, 2015
Leader of the Holey Brotherhood
#36301: Dec 6th 2019 at 5:42:06 PM

Goku won when he completely destroyed his body with a 4th Level Kaioken...when he was already using a 3rd level Kaioken that (on top of putting him at 24,000 to Vegeta's 18,000) would have produced a much more powerful beam than Vegeta's...and Vegeta was still giving him a fight.

So yeah. Tobias is right. Vegeta is the Beam-Meister General. Guy's got beams like no-one else.

When it comes to beams, Vegeta is the hammer to everyone else's nail. Goku may be more flexible and use them in new ways, but when you can just blast the hell out of the other dude, that doesn't really mean much, which is the lesson Dragonball has been teaching us for years now.

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fredhot16 Don't want to leave but cannot pretend from Baton Rogue, Louisiana. Since: Jan, 2015 Relationship Status: Too sexy for my shirt
Don't want to leave but cannot pretend
#36302: Dec 6th 2019 at 5:42:41 PM

[up][nja]'d by a handsome man.

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HandsomeRob Leader of the Holey Brotherhood from The land of broken records Since: Jan, 2015
Leader of the Holey Brotherhood
#36303: Dec 6th 2019 at 5:44:39 PM
TobiasDrake (•̀⤙•́) (Edited uphill both ways) Relationship Status: Arm chopping is not a love language!
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#36304: Dec 6th 2019 at 6:10:08 PM

[up][up][up] Exactly.

It was established from the Raditz fight that beam attacks actually have a higher battle power than their user. Goku, with a battle power of 416, could fire a Kamehameha that had over 924 BP. Piccolo, 408 BP, could push his Makankosappo to 1,480 BP - enough to pierce the vastly superior Raditz (1,500 BP) with a lethal blow.

The same fight also established that one beam's power increase is not equal to another's. They needed to use Piccolo's Makankosappo to reach the level of power required; Goku's Kamehameha wasn't strong enough to do the job. Not only are these types of attacks stronger than their user, but there are variances between how much stronger different attacks are.

Now, Piccolo's Makankosappo only had to kill a defenseless Raditz. It only needed to be close enough to Raditz's baseline ballpark power to strike a lethal hit. Vegeta's Galick Gun had to overpower Goku's Kamehameha. It couldn't just be as strong as Goku; it had to be stronger than Goku's best attack.

So Vegeta at 18,000 BP launches his beam of some nebulous power above his own. Goku at 24,000 BP launches a beam in return of some nebulous power above his own. The two beams arm wrestle in the sky, and Vegeta's beam wins. Goku is forced to further boost his power advantage from 133% of Vegeta's strength to 178% of Vegeta's in order for his Kamehameha to surpass the Galick Gun.

That's impressive as shit. Goku is a better fighter than Vegeta in many ways, but the Galick Gun is a much stronger beam than the Kamehameha.

Edited by TobiasDrake on Dec 6th 2019 at 7:13:12 AM

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WillKeaton from Alberta, Canada Since: Jun, 2010
#36305: Dec 6th 2019 at 6:12:14 PM

Oh I see. I forgot that Goku was already using the Kaioken before the beam struggle even started.

Edited by WillKeaton on Dec 6th 2019 at 7:15:01 AM

alekos23 Since: Mar, 2013
#36306: Dec 6th 2019 at 6:24:33 PM

Isn't that beam thing an Earth only thing though? Raditz was genuinely surprised by it despite having beams of his own.

HandsomeRob Leader of the Holey Brotherhood from The land of broken records Since: Jan, 2015
Leader of the Holey Brotherhood
#36307: Dec 6th 2019 at 6:29:18 PM

Well, Raditz has been revealed to not be that much of a big deal. It's possible he just lacked knowledge of that technique.

I mean, it's the only way Vegeta not losing that fight instantly before he learned to raise and lower his power makes any sense.

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WillKeaton from Alberta, Canada Since: Jun, 2010
#36308: Dec 6th 2019 at 6:29:47 PM

It's not the beams themselves that confused Raditz, it was the fact that they charged them to increase the power of the attack. I don't think the typical Frieza Force schlub could charge an attack. I do think that some of the stronger members, Zarbon and Dodoria for instance, could charge an attack, but Raditz never would have fought them, and may not have seen them fight in a situation where charging an attack was even necessary. I don't think Nappa ever charged up an attack, though Vegeta seems to have charged up his Galick Gun, though I don't think Raditz ever saw Vegeta's Galick Gun.

Edited by WillKeaton on Dec 6th 2019 at 8:00:00 AM

Saiga Since: Feb, 2011 Relationship Status: Getting away with murder
#36309: Dec 6th 2019 at 6:40:22 PM

It's not just Raditz. Nappa and Vegeta make it very clear that the ability for the Z fighters to charge their attacks is the same as being able to change their battle powers on the fly, something that Nappa and Vegeta (and most of Freeza's forces) can't do.

How this relates to Vegeta being able to match Goku's beam (18,000 vs 24,000 at least) is unclear, but what thing that is certain is that Vegeta shouldn't read as any higher than 18,000 when doing so.

Fedetropes Call me Blast, not Fedetropes from Doomed universe Since: Dec, 2016 Relationship Status: Shipping fictional characters
Call me Blast, not Fedetropes
#36310: Dec 6th 2019 at 6:59:18 PM

Well I did some test with my calculator (assuming the Kamehameha multiplied the user BP by two)

Vegeta's Galick Gun must be 2 times or more to stalemate and slowly beat out Goku's Kaioken Kamehameha x3 (which has a BP of 48 thousand)

Or maybe i'm wrong, i'm practically a zombie RN

Edited by Fedetropes on Dec 6th 2019 at 11:59:51 AM

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PushoverMediaCritic I'm sorry Tien, but I must go all out. from the Italy of America Since: Jul, 2015 Relationship Status: watch?v=dQw4w9WgXcQ
I'm sorry Tien, but I must go all out.
#36311: Dec 6th 2019 at 7:03:28 PM

[up][up]Except Vegeta says that the Kamehameha is the same type of attack as the Galick Gun, which can be interpreted to mean that both are charging moves that get stronger than the user. I think they were just referring to the Earthling's ability to hide their power levels before.

Personally, I just headcanon that the Kaioken puts so much strain on a person's body that it nerfs the multiplier of any moves used during it. So, Kamehameha without KKx3: 1.22x, Kamehameha with KKx3: 1.18x (just as a guess), but made up for by the Kaioken multiplier itself.

Edited by PushoverMediaCritic on Dec 6th 2019 at 8:04:19 AM

WillKeaton from Alberta, Canada Since: Jun, 2010
#36312: Dec 6th 2019 at 7:07:18 PM

Yeah, I also got the impression Vegeta was charging his Galick Gun prior to the beam struggle. After Nappa read everyone's power levels Vegeta immediately said those readings were deceptive because these guys can hide their power, and I don't recall them being surprised by anyone charging a beam attack or anything after that.

Edited by WillKeaton on Dec 6th 2019 at 8:13:53 AM

Saiga Since: Feb, 2011 Relationship Status: Getting away with murder
#36313: Dec 6th 2019 at 7:45:25 PM

But they based that knowledge off Goku/Piccolo's attacks. That's the only time they "power up" in the fight with Raditz, and that's how Vegeta and Nappa know they can do that when they read the Earthling's battle power.

So if you think that Vegeta can also charge attacks, nothing that Goku/Piccolo do would tip him off that the Earthlings are different to him.

PushoverMediaCritic I'm sorry Tien, but I must go all out. from the Italy of America Since: Jul, 2015 Relationship Status: watch?v=dQw4w9WgXcQ
I'm sorry Tien, but I must go all out.
#36314: Dec 7th 2019 at 12:04:17 AM

That's the only time they "power up" in the fight with Raditz

No, they also get stronger when they take off their weighted clothing, and Raditz notes there that they were holding back before.

randomness4 Ghost '11 from The Land of Inconvenience Since: Sep, 2011
Ghost '11
#36315: Dec 7th 2019 at 12:14:10 AM

Beam power-up, not in general.

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Saiga Since: Feb, 2011 Relationship Status: Getting away with murder
#36316: Dec 7th 2019 at 1:37:18 AM

That's why I said power-up, in the sense that it is known in the series.

Taking off their weights was a much smaller increase for each of them, and was not a result of them consciously raising their battle power through ki manipulation (as far as it is presented).

Edited by Saiga on Dec 7th 2019 at 7:39:06 PM

terumokou Pitiable and Illegally Dumped Object from In a bamboo forest full of bunnies, California Since: Sep, 2013 Relationship Status: Mu
Pitiable and Illegally Dumped Object
#36317: Dec 12th 2019 at 1:20:03 PM

Konnichiwassup!

Announcement vid. The actual lists starts tomorrow so here's a dose of Kaiser embracing his inner Japanophile/Weeb/Whatever word we're using now as a badge of honor. And their new character models of themselves.

Edited by terumokou on Dec 12th 2019 at 1:25:30 AM

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TobiasDrake (•̀⤙•́) (Edited uphill both ways) Relationship Status: Arm chopping is not a love language!
(•̀⤙•́)
#36318: Dec 12th 2019 at 1:59:49 PM

The #1 slot has got to be the Kamehameha. It's not the most powerful attack. It's not the most versatile attack. It's not even the coolest attack. It's pretty much a sledgehammer. But it's Goku's sledgehammer, and that's made it an iconic staple of the franchise for as long as there has even been Dragon Ball.

When I was in high school, it wasn't the Final Flash or Makankosappo that every single nerd pretended they could do. It was always the Kamehameha. The Kamehameha represented Dragon Ball as much as Super Saiyans and screaming.

With the possible exception of Bukujutsu, no other technique has come to define this franchise the way the Kamehameha has.

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HailMuffins Since: May, 2016 Relationship Status: Shipping fictional characters
#36319: Dec 12th 2019 at 2:03:05 PM

Okay, I'm stealing that one.

...BTW, it's Genki Dama, Makankosapō, Kienzan, Galick Ho, Ki-Ko-Hō and Tayoken.

F*ck you fight me.

Medigo03 Since: Sep, 2013
#36320: Dec 12th 2019 at 2:50:20 PM

Kamehameha is pretty versatile compared to most blasts, really.

You can fire it from your feet, you can control its path, you can create delayed blasts. Etc etc.

HandsomeRob Leader of the Holey Brotherhood from The land of broken records Since: Jan, 2015
Leader of the Holey Brotherhood
#36321: Dec 12th 2019 at 4:24:00 PM

[up]

And it can be combined with other techniques.

Kaioken X3/4 Kamehameha and Instant Transmission Kamehameha are two pretty big moments.

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Fedetropes Call me Blast, not Fedetropes from Doomed universe Since: Dec, 2016 Relationship Status: Shipping fictional characters
Call me Blast, not Fedetropes
#36322: Dec 12th 2019 at 4:32:36 PM

Talking about moves.

Do you guys think Goku could have replicated Vegeta's moves (Galick Gun, Final Flash, Bug Bang Attack, etc) from seeing them once?

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SonOfSharknado Love is Love is Love Since: Oct, 2013 Relationship Status: And they all lived happily ever after <3
Love is Love is Love
#36323: Dec 12th 2019 at 4:36:39 PM

I mean, sure. There's nothing special to literally anything Vegeta does. He just makes a really big laser.

Goku is a trained martial artist who's perfected his craft over decades and is always seeking out new challenges and new things to learn. It took Vegeta forty years to get to a point where he could think of training as anything more than "lift the most weights to get the most power and shoot the biggest, explodiest, brightest gun."

Edited by SonOfSharknado on Dec 12th 2019 at 7:37:50 AM

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wanderlustwarrior Role Model from Where Gods Belong Since: Jun, 2009 Relationship Status: What's love got to do with it?
Role Model
#36324: Dec 12th 2019 at 4:59:58 PM

We talking about move names here? I bet number one is the King of Hawaii - Turtle Destruction Wave.

jouXIII The One Who Knows Many Things from Between the Multiverses (4 Score & 7 Years Ago) Relationship Status: Shipping fictional characters
The One Who Knows Many Things
#36325: Dec 13th 2019 at 12:01:27 PM

[up] "Turtle Screwing Wave", to be more accurate, which isn't surprising, considering how Turtle Hermit is...

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