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TobiasDrake (•̀⤙•́) (Edited uphill both ways) Relationship Status: Arm chopping is not a love language!
(•̀⤙•́)
#36076: Nov 2nd 2019 at 9:43:23 PM

wild mass guessVegeta achieved Super Saiyan God the same way Goku did: five righteous Saiyans held hands and channeled the ritual into a sixth. The sixth was Vegeta. The five were also Vegeta.

He had Tenshinhan teach him the Multiform technique before entering the RoSaT.wild mass guess

Edited by TobiasDrake on Nov 2nd 2019 at 10:49:45 AM

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PushoverMediaCritic I'm sorry Tien, but I must go all out. from the Italy of America Since: Jul, 2015 Relationship Status: watch?v=dQw4w9WgXcQ
I'm sorry Tien, but I must go all out.
#36077: Nov 2nd 2019 at 9:48:41 PM

That's the same line of logic that leads to ideas like "if Piccolo used the Multiform and then merged with himself with Namekian Fusion, would he be stronger?" and "if Goku used the Multiform to make four of himself, could he fuse two pairs with Metamoran Fusion, and then fuse the two Metamoran fused Gokus with each other using Potara fusion?"

sgamer82 Since: Jan, 2001
#36078: Nov 2nd 2019 at 10:47:31 PM

[up][up] So Super Saiyan God Vegeta is literally full of himself?

Makes perfect sense, actually.

Edited by sgamer82 on Nov 2nd 2019 at 11:50:02 AM

Larkmarn Since: Nov, 2010 Relationship Status: Hello, I love you
#36079: Nov 4th 2019 at 11:24:26 AM

[up][up] ... that just broke my brain.

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terumokou Pitiable and Illegally Dumped Object from In a bamboo forest full of bunnies, California Since: Sep, 2013 Relationship Status: Mu
Pitiable and Illegally Dumped Object
#36080: Nov 5th 2019 at 9:04:59 PM

https://twitter.com/teamfourstar/status/1191932049357193216

That's one way to get him to swear...err promise not to reveal Trunk's secret.

Burning love!
HailMuffins Since: May, 2016 Relationship Status: Shipping fictional characters
#36081: Nov 6th 2019 at 3:56:09 PM

You know, we talk shit about Vegeta Heroic Sacrifice against Buu being All for Nothing, but when you think about it, it's a pretty fixed pattern in the story:

Whenever a hero pulls off a Heroic Sacrifice, Action Bomb or Suicide Attack, the villain always comes out alive, like Chiaotzu with Nappa and Goku and 16 with Cell.

In contrast, when a villain pulls off a Suicide Attack, it tends to work, as seen with the Saibaman and Cell, funnily enough. The latter did kill Goku and lived to boast of it, if nothing else.

JRads47 Since: Nov, 2014
#36082: Nov 6th 2019 at 4:28:18 PM

I liked the moment regardless. Vegeta knew that he was still a massive piece of shit but went through with it anyways.

Soble Since: Dec, 2013
#36083: Nov 6th 2019 at 7:53:00 PM

Except in Dragonball Super where suicidal attacks aren't fatal.

cause this is DRAGON-BALL SUPER, we've got the skills to blow Zen-Oh away!

I'M MR. MEESEEKS, LOOK AT ME!
Anomalocaris20 from Sagittarius A* Since: Sep, 2010 Relationship Status: Love blinded me (with science!)
#36084: Nov 6th 2019 at 8:30:23 PM

Blowing Zen-o away is really not that impressive a feat. Dude(s) gasps in excitement whenever somebody so much as blinks.

You cannot firmly grasp the true form of Squidward's technique!
PushoverMediaCritic I'm sorry Tien, but I must go all out. from the Italy of America Since: Jul, 2015 Relationship Status: watch?v=dQw4w9WgXcQ
I'm sorry Tien, but I must go all out.
#36085: Nov 6th 2019 at 11:54:06 PM

[up][up]The justification was that Vegeta in SSBE is so much more powerful than he was in SS2 that the Final Explosion didn't drain enough energy or do enough damage to kill him. YMMV on whether that explanation is actually good or not, but I thought it was fine.

Edited by PushoverMediaCritic on Nov 6th 2019 at 12:56:06 PM

Soble Since: Dec, 2013
#36086: Nov 7th 2019 at 2:48:01 AM

I'm okay somewhat because Super Saiyan Blue let Super Kaioken Blue happen.

But being tonka tough enough to survive an explosion that killed you previously, and instantly regaining your lost power afterward makes it too much.

Having Vegeta actually sacrifice himself would have been touching, and would have made the ultimate conclusion of the TOP more interesting (only Goku, 17, and Frieza are left).

Instead it's narrative robbery. Vegeta's epic moment from the Buu Saga is outright stolen for nostalgic value and loses all of its original purpose - this extremely selfish and vain person who'd pretty much doomed the Earth twice - was sacrificing himself to save everyone.

This time it's just for the sake of getting rid of an antagonist. It even loses the weight of depowering Vegeta and leaving Goku in a hairy situation.

It's fanservice gone too far. Same with 17 blowing himself up.

Edited by Soble on Nov 7th 2019 at 10:49:11 AM

I'M MR. MEESEEKS, LOOK AT ME!
randomness4 Ghost '11 from The Land of Inconvenience Since: Sep, 2011
Ghost '11
#36087: Nov 7th 2019 at 6:49:41 AM

So all that explanation means is that he only used as much energy as last time, because apparently using all of your energy in self-sacrifice is too much to do a 2nd time.

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alekos23 Since: Mar, 2013
#36088: Nov 7th 2019 at 6:51:54 AM

Having two suicide bomb sacrifices in the same arc is probably part why it looks so dumb isn't it

TobiasDrake (•̀⤙•́) (Edited uphill both ways) Relationship Status: Arm chopping is not a love language!
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#36089: Nov 7th 2019 at 7:18:48 AM

It's Toei being Toei. They love reusing old techniques every chance they can, so bringing back Final Explosion and going "But Vegeta can survive it now!" is typical Toei.

It's funny because Vegeta already has a survivable version of the move. During his fight against the Earthlings waaaaaaay back when, he tries to kill the battered Goku, Krillin, Gohan, and Yajirobe simultaneously with an explosion attack exactly like Final Explosion, but without the whole "And then he dies" thing.

It doesn't work out because he's too badly beaten to give it enough power IIRC. But "explosion attack that's not Final Explosion" is a part of his movelist. Final Explosion is distinct because it uses so much power that it kills Vegeta; that's literally the one thing that makes it stand out against just doing a nameless radial ki burst.

The reason it's redundant with 17's self-destruct is because that plot point is Toriyama's, while the Final Explosion redux is Toei's. 17's self-destruct is in both the manga and the anime, while the outcome of his self-destruct is treated differently.

In the anime, his self-destruct stalls Jiren for a while. He survives it, however, and rejoins Goku and Frieza for the final battle with Jiren.

In the manga, his self-destruct is a fakeout plan that he worked out with Frieza. He makes an impassioned speech about this desperation move to save his universe, and then promptly feigns blowing himself up with the self-destruct bomb that he doesn't actually have (Shenron removed it at the end of the Cell arc, remember?). Then he hides in the rubble, concealing himself with the fact that as an android, he doesn't have a ki signature that people can sense.

This allows 17 to pop up once all fighters have fallen and go, "HEY GUYS, my universe still has a fighter in the ring. That means we win, right?" Presumably the original plan was that 17 would surprise-gank whoever seemed to have won the tournament, but since Goku, Frieza, and Jiren took each other out, it worked out better than could even be expected.

Edited by TobiasDrake on Nov 7th 2019 at 8:23:29 AM

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HailMuffins Since: May, 2016 Relationship Status: Shipping fictional characters
#36090: Nov 7th 2019 at 7:48:34 AM

See, if we picked every good thing the manga did and put it together with every good thing the anime did, we'd have a perfect Tournament Arc.

Alas.

HandsomeRob Leader of the Holey Brotherhood from The land of broken records Since: Jan, 2015
Leader of the Holey Brotherhood
#36091: Nov 7th 2019 at 7:51:22 AM

And I admit, I like the way they did it in the manga better.

Outsmarting the other team by taking advantage of the fact he has no energy to sense and just waiting until later was a good idea, although considering it's Jiren we're talking about he probably would have bullshitted some way to tell 17 was still there, because POWER!!!!

I mean, this is Dragonball; while it's not absolute, pretty much potential solution that doesn't involve punching the other guy will fail so that it ultimately comes down to (Goku) punching the other guy.

Then again, that's why the manga version works; it's a shame it didn't come first actual. The surprise was ruined.

One Strip! One Strip!
slimcoder The Head of the Hydra Since: May, 2013
The Head of the Hydra
#36092: Nov 7th 2019 at 7:53:11 AM

I have been watching some Kengan Ashura & I could do with a good old classic tournament.

"I am Alpharius. This is a lie."
HailMuffins Since: May, 2016 Relationship Status: Shipping fictional characters
#36093: Nov 7th 2019 at 7:55:55 AM

Oh, that released already?

You've read the manga, right, slim? How good would you say the adaptation is?

TobiasDrake (•̀⤙•́) (Edited uphill both ways) Relationship Status: Arm chopping is not a love language!
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#36094: Nov 7th 2019 at 7:58:02 AM

I like to imagine that if Jiren had won, he'd have been in the middle of throwing up his arms in celebration when suddenly the floor caves in under him and he falls out of the ring. 17 trapdoors him for the win.

And for bonus points, I choose to imagine 17 doing this by sawing through the floor, Wile E. Coyote style.

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HandsomeRob Leader of the Holey Brotherhood from The land of broken records Since: Jan, 2015
Leader of the Holey Brotherhood
#36095: Nov 7th 2019 at 8:00:35 AM

I like that.

It's now canon.

One Strip! One Strip!
slimcoder The Head of the Hydra Since: May, 2013
The Head of the Hydra
#36096: Nov 7th 2019 at 8:03:57 AM

[up][up][up] Yes the second half of the show is out & it good but not gonna lie it’s a compressed adaptation.

It rushes to start the tournament so it actually skips several character building or introduction moments most noticeably cutting Yamashita’s second son being adapted out entirely thus removing a heartwarming moment of Ohma helping out Yamashita by scaring straight his son, the build-up to who is the serial killer fighter, & an entire character entirely who’s sorta integral to the plot.

It pretty much keeps the bare minimum stuff required though from what I’ve seen of the second half of the show (up to the Saw Paing vs Yoshinari) it seems to cutting out less stuff.

But the fights itself are pretty good. No lie the CG is fluid as fuck even if it looks kinda fucked up & manages to do the fights well with the final fights of the season being flat-out incredible from what I hear.

It’s pretty much Baki if Baki had stuff like actual character development & heart.

Edited by slimcoder on Nov 7th 2019 at 8:05:41 AM

"I am Alpharius. This is a lie."
VeryMelon Since: Jul, 2011 Relationship Status: Anime is my true love
#36097: Nov 7th 2019 at 8:40:20 AM

Kengan Ashura is definitely better than Baki at what Baki does. It even has the decency to kill people when they take lethal injuries.

TobiasDrake (•̀⤙•́) (Edited uphill both ways) Relationship Status: Arm chopping is not a love language!
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#36098: Nov 7th 2019 at 9:07:25 AM

I like that.

It's now canon.

Toppo's all, "That was a cheap trick!" And the Zen-os are just like, "No, that was HILARIOUS, is what that was!"

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slimcoder The Head of the Hydra Since: May, 2013
The Head of the Hydra
#36099: Nov 7th 2019 at 9:08:57 AM

Hell taking dehabilitating injuries actually factors into the plot.

Since the tournament is done through the course of a couple days and fighters have consecutive fights with only a day at most of rest, it means damage & exhaustion racks up quickly.

So several fighters through either sustaining severe exhaustion or crippiling injuries are forced to take up different strategies. Most noticeably Muteba Gizenga who after temporarily losing his super hearing in the second round is forced to take up electronic eyes to give him sight again in the 3rd round to make up for his lost ability. He even gives up the fight after taking too much damage because going on any further would have permently crippled him & threatened his livelihood.

Edited by slimcoder on Nov 7th 2019 at 9:11:03 AM

"I am Alpharius. This is a lie."
Saiga Since: Feb, 2011 Relationship Status: Getting away with murder
#36100: Nov 7th 2019 at 2:00:14 PM

See, if we picked every good thing the manga did and put it together with every good thing the anime did, we'd have a perfect Tournament Arc.

No we'd just have the manga

Tee-hee


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