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slimcoder The Head of the Hydra Since: May, 2013
The Head of the Hydra
#35976: Sep 26th 2019 at 12:18:15 PM

[up][up][up] Overrated means nothing.

[up] Ah poor Kaoru.

Edited by slimcoder on Sep 26th 2019 at 12:18:54 PM

"I am Alpharius. This is a lie."
HailMuffins Since: May, 2016 Relationship Status: Shipping fictional characters
#35977: Sep 26th 2019 at 12:18:21 PM

Yeah, but an arc being iconic doesn't mean everything that follows it, or even preseeds it, is bad, or mediocre in Kenshin's case.

Just take Dragon Ball itself as an exemple: Namek is the most well-remembered, but the Sayians, Cell, and Buu arcs all have plenty of defenders.

I think it is fair to say that the Author just flat-out ran out of ideas for fight scenes after Kyoto, which makes perfect sense considering the arc ended with Kenshin mastering the ultimate technique of the Hiten-mitsurugi ryû.

fredhot16 Don't want to leave but cannot pretend from Baton Rogue, Louisiana. Since: Jan, 2015 Relationship Status: Too sexy for my shirt
Don't want to leave but cannot pretend
#35978: Sep 26th 2019 at 12:21:04 PM

[up][up]"Overrated" does have an actual definition. You can disagree if it's overrated or not, certainly, but what you're saying is not really substantial because it's not even an argument.

Edited by fredhot16 on Sep 26th 2019 at 12:23:09 PM

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HailMuffins Since: May, 2016 Relationship Status: Shipping fictional characters
#35979: Sep 26th 2019 at 12:25:32 PM

Overrated means "I don't like this as much as other people do".

That's all there is to it.

fredhot16 Don't want to leave but cannot pretend from Baton Rogue, Louisiana. Since: Jan, 2015 Relationship Status: Too sexy for my shirt
Don't want to leave but cannot pretend
#35980: Sep 26th 2019 at 12:26:18 PM

[up]Correct.

I'm glad we're on the same side?

Trans rights are human rights. TV Tropes is not a place for bigotry, cruelty, or dickishness, no matter who or their position.
terumokou Pitiable and Illegally Dumped Object from In a bamboo forest full of bunnies, California Since: Sep, 2013 Relationship Status: Mu
Pitiable and Illegally Dumped Object
#35981: Sep 26th 2019 at 12:26:36 PM

I mean, Enishi is an okay villain with a motive to royally try to fuck up Kenshin psychologically but him, and to a larger extent, the whole Jinchuu arc villain gallery pales to Shishio and the entire Juppongatana.

Burning love!
slimcoder The Head of the Hydra Since: May, 2013
The Head of the Hydra
#35982: Sep 26th 2019 at 12:29:17 PM

Wakatsuki in hindsight actually agrees with that & believes he should have went with the original idea of him just being the lone villain.

"I am Alpharius. This is a lie."
HailMuffins Since: May, 2016 Relationship Status: Shipping fictional characters
#35983: Sep 26th 2019 at 12:59:37 PM

@fredhot: It's that for a lot of people the notion that "art is subjective" only applies until someone disagrees with them.

That is why you can only find something to be overrated, but nothing ever is overrated, because the latter implies there's some objective metric of criticism the story fails to match, which is bollocks.

Edited by HailMuffins on Sep 26th 2019 at 5:01:25 AM

fredhot16 Don't want to leave but cannot pretend from Baton Rogue, Louisiana. Since: Jan, 2015 Relationship Status: Too sexy for my shirt
Don't want to leave but cannot pretend
#35984: Sep 26th 2019 at 1:31:53 PM

[up]Isn’t that usually implied that they’re saying it from a subjective point of view?

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Sannom (4 Score & 7 Years Ago)
#35985: Sep 26th 2019 at 1:57:00 PM

I mean, Enishi is an okay villain with a motive to royally try to fuck up Kenshin psychologically but him, and to a larger extent, the whole Jinchuu arc villain gallery pales to Shishio and the entire Juppongatana.
The puppeteer was fun, as were some of the moves of the anachronistic military fanboy (also how he lost, that level of pride and over-confidence is always funny) but the Barret Wallace expy (especially since he didn't even use his upgrade for the big fight, dude, seriously!) and the hidden weapons specialist weren't too good, yeah. Although Enishi going berserk and "NO YOU DON'T!" on Kenshin's lesser techniques in their second fight was also cool.

Edited by Sannom on Sep 26th 2019 at 10:58:59 AM

KarkatTheDalek Not as angry as the name would suggest. from Somwhere in Time/Space Since: Mar, 2012 Relationship Status: You're a beautiful woman, probably
Not as angry as the name would suggest.
#35986: Sep 26th 2019 at 3:57:27 PM

Out of curiosity, what about Kenshin’s treatment of female characters in particular is so bad?

Oh God! Natural light!
fredhot16 Don't want to leave but cannot pretend from Baton Rogue, Louisiana. Since: Jan, 2015 Relationship Status: Too sexy for my shirt
Don't want to leave but cannot pretend
#35987: Sep 26th 2019 at 4:17:16 PM

[up]You know what, color me curious too. Shonen tends to be infamous for that sort of stuff so what makes this one special?

Trans rights are human rights. TV Tropes is not a place for bigotry, cruelty, or dickishness, no matter who or their position.
HailMuffins Since: May, 2016 Relationship Status: Shipping fictional characters
#35988: Sep 26th 2019 at 4:19:05 PM

Count me in, I don't remember Samurai X beimg particularly bad for the titles of the time.

terumokou Pitiable and Illegally Dumped Object from In a bamboo forest full of bunnies, California Since: Sep, 2013 Relationship Status: Mu
Pitiable and Illegally Dumped Object
#35989: Sep 26th 2019 at 4:32:50 PM

All I can think of is Kaoru and that's because she's usually in the role of damsel in distress more than actionly like with her (and Misao) against Kamatari. She gets a pass with Jin-e considering the dude is a total psychopath.

But then again, she's strong against normal people and hopelessly outclassed against anyone that's basically a freak of nature.

Edited by terumokou on Sep 26th 2019 at 4:35:16 AM

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fredhot16 Don't want to leave but cannot pretend from Baton Rogue, Louisiana. Since: Jan, 2015 Relationship Status: Too sexy for my shirt
Don't want to leave but cannot pretend
#35990: Sep 26th 2019 at 4:48:42 PM

[up]And how many villains tend to be "freaks of nature"? Being skilled when she's fighting a normal person is not much of a consolation prize when most, hypothetically, of the villains aren't normal people?

Trans rights are human rights. TV Tropes is not a place for bigotry, cruelty, or dickishness, no matter who or their position.
slimcoder The Head of the Hydra Since: May, 2013
The Head of the Hydra
#35991: Sep 26th 2019 at 4:52:27 PM

Her only fight in the entire series is pretty much her tag-team against Kamatari.

[up] Also indeed none of the major villains are normal people.

Edited by slimcoder on Sep 26th 2019 at 4:54:27 AM

"I am Alpharius. This is a lie."
terumokou Pitiable and Illegally Dumped Object from In a bamboo forest full of bunnies, California Since: Sep, 2013 Relationship Status: Mu
Pitiable and Illegally Dumped Object
#35992: Sep 26th 2019 at 6:12:54 PM

I might has misread because I'm started to wonder if the question is "does Watsuki treat his female characters better or just as bad in 1990s Shonen?"

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HailMuffins Since: May, 2016 Relationship Status: Shipping fictional characters
#35993: Sep 26th 2019 at 6:17:03 PM

Didn't she help defeat one of the villains in the Kyoto arc?

terumokou Pitiable and Illegally Dumped Object from In a bamboo forest full of bunnies, California Since: Sep, 2013 Relationship Status: Mu
Pitiable and Illegally Dumped Object
#35994: Sep 26th 2019 at 6:23:43 PM

Yeah her and Misao tag team Kamatari.

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TobiasDrake (•̀⤙•́) (Edited uphill both ways) Relationship Status: Arm chopping is not a love language!
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#35995: Sep 26th 2019 at 6:25:24 PM

Who, it's worth noting, is a character that has not aged well. Rurouni Kenshin was back in the day when "transgender anime character" meant "This dude who is a dude and is 100% a dude likes to wear women's clothing 'cause he's just weird".

Fortunately, the combined strength of two "real women" was able to equal out the strength of the one "fake woman".

And that is the only meaningful fight Kaoru ever had. She does teach swordsmanship at her dojo and Kenshin likes to talk about how her style is better than his 'cause his style is an evil style that's wicked and bad. But it's very much Do Not Do This Cool Thing; even in universe, her one student really aspires to practice Kenshin's style instead, and only settles for Kaoru's because Kenshin makes him. While constantly trying to self-learn Kenshin's style.

Edited by TobiasDrake on Sep 26th 2019 at 7:30:12 AM

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fredhot16 Don't want to leave but cannot pretend from Baton Rogue, Louisiana. Since: Jan, 2015 Relationship Status: Too sexy for my shirt
Don't want to leave but cannot pretend
#35996: Sep 26th 2019 at 6:29:46 PM

[up][up]Yes, that's been brought up and described as her only fight in the series.

Kinda strikes me as the equivalent of Tea from Yu-gi-oh winning two duels. That's not a laurel, that's a participation prize.

[up]Oh, god, I'm flashbacking to that one transgender person Yusuke beat when he and Kuwabara were trying to save that girl with the mystic tears.

Trans rights are human rights. TV Tropes is not a place for bigotry, cruelty, or dickishness, no matter who or their position.
Saiga Since: Feb, 2011 Relationship Status: Getting away with murder
#35997: Sep 26th 2019 at 6:33:14 PM

Yeah Kaoru is horribly handled. She's supposed to be this competent swordswoman, and the creator tries to justify it with Overshadowed by Awesome / it being 'realistic' that being a woman would have a strength disadvantage - but she's the only one hit with that.

The fucking child of the group doesn't get hit with that, despite being a whole lot less realistic to have him taking part in fights. Unless the author seriously thinks male children are physically stronger than adult women - especially one who is a trained warrior.

The reason it's so notable in Kenshin is because the justification used is blatantly sexist, there's no positive examples to counterbalance it, and Kenshin is regarding by many as being very good so what is arguably it's biggest flaw ends up sticking out more.

@Tobias I lol'd at your description of Kenshin's narrative. I enjoyed the series a lot, but thats definitely true.

Edited by Saiga on Sep 26th 2019 at 11:35:57 PM

slimcoder The Head of the Hydra Since: May, 2013
The Head of the Hydra
#35998: Sep 26th 2019 at 6:35:32 PM

Yeah Yahiko ends up fighting & injuring a brute of a man who's a living mountain of muscle over 5 times his size.

Pretty insane.

"I am Alpharius. This is a lie."
terumokou Pitiable and Illegally Dumped Object from In a bamboo forest full of bunnies, California Since: Sep, 2013 Relationship Status: Mu
Pitiable and Illegally Dumped Object
#35999: Sep 26th 2019 at 6:36:38 PM

Wonder if it's just limited to Kenshin because I barely remember Busou Renkin and I cannot remember for the life of me why I dropped Embalming other than getting horribly distracted by something else.

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TobiasDrake (•̀⤙•́) (Edited uphill both ways) Relationship Status: Arm chopping is not a love language!
(•̀⤙•́)
#36000: Sep 26th 2019 at 6:40:21 PM

Everything I remember about Busou Renkin consists entirely of this character. Who is the best character. And not safe for work.

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