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HailMuffins Since: May, 2016 Relationship Status: Shipping fictional characters
#35726: Aug 19th 2019 at 11:57:21 AM

[up]That was probably just for effect.

HandsomeRob Leader of the Holey Brotherhood from The land of broken records Since: Jan, 2015
Leader of the Holey Brotherhood
#35727: Aug 19th 2019 at 12:16:08 PM

....hmmm.

While the buff form is useless for fist fighting (unless you try to use it Kaioken style) using it to add even more ooomph to your beam attacks might have some value.

I'm surprised Goku and Vegeta never considered it for that. Like, charge up a beam, let it get a certain distance, and them go buff part of the way through and up it's power beyond what the opponent was expecting.

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TobiasDrake (•̀⤙•́) (Edited uphill both ways) Relationship Status: Arm chopping is not a love language!
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#35728: Aug 19th 2019 at 12:38:38 PM

Might have helped Goku's Teleport Kamehameha actually kill Cell, too.

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HandsomeRob Leader of the Holey Brotherhood from The land of broken records Since: Jan, 2015
Leader of the Holey Brotherhood
#35729: Aug 19th 2019 at 2:08:04 PM

Yeah.

Of course, so would the Kaioken if he'd been willing to try to combine them.

I'm annoyed it took until Super for that to happen, even with the whole stacking them together is too stressful for the body excuse.

It makes more sense for me for Goku to work on improving the two together, maybe by keeping Kaioken on an even shorter time frame (like maybe only doing it when he lands a punch, or something like that).

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WillKeaton from Alberta, Canada Since: Jun, 2010
#35730: Aug 19th 2019 at 2:21:36 PM

You'd assume that the Kaioken and Super Saiyan were incomatable in some way, since they never get used together, but then Super came along and said you can totally do both.

HailMuffins Since: May, 2016 Relationship Status: Shipping fictional characters
#35731: Aug 19th 2019 at 2:23:52 PM

Regupar Super Saiyan and Kaioken are inconpatable, it's only with Super Saiyan Blue that he can mix both.

They flat out say as much in the episode.

Soble Since: Dec, 2013
#35732: Aug 19th 2019 at 2:37:23 PM

But they never said it until Super came out.

Dragonball existed decades before Super was even a thought. For decades fans defended the the assumption that "because Goku never tried [Super Kaioken], it must be impossible."

Edited by Soble on Aug 19th 2019 at 4:02:47 AM

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Demongodofchaos2 Face me now, bitch! from In a Cultivation World (Ancient one) Relationship Status: 700 wives and 300 concubines
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#35733: Aug 19th 2019 at 3:12:46 PM

When it comes to outer space shots of special attacks in Manga, none that I know have are such ridiculous bullshit in a consistent manner then Toriko

Vegeta's Final Flasha and Freiza's death ball would be tiny compared to some of this shit.

Edited by Demongodofchaos2 on Aug 19th 2019 at 6:18:54 AM

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HandsomeRob Leader of the Holey Brotherhood from The land of broken records Since: Jan, 2015
Leader of the Holey Brotherhood
#35734: Aug 19th 2019 at 3:14:05 PM

More or less.

We all assumed that using them together was too stressful, but there was never any Word of God on it, and he never tried using them together in the Manga (and even in the Super Manga, he hasn't really tried it, though he apparently used a strategy that was similar to Kaioken while in Blue, but not that exactly).

If Toriyama had just said he can't do it, he'd die that'd solve a lot of problems. As it is we know the meta reason (he stopped caring about Kaioken), but there's no in universe reason.

Though I admit I'm kinda being unfair here by saying if they don't say it can't be done, then that doesn't mean it can't be done.

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HailMuffins Since: May, 2016 Relationship Status: Shipping fictional characters
#35735: Aug 19th 2019 at 3:56:04 PM

[up]x2 And here I thought Toriko was about cooking.

TobiasDrake (•̀⤙•́) (Edited uphill both ways) Relationship Status: Arm chopping is not a love language!
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#35736: Aug 19th 2019 at 3:58:55 PM

Pretty much [up], yeah.

Toei's anime version of Super has Goku state that he can't use Kaioken in Super Saiyan but totes can in Blue, while Toyotarou's manga doesn't have Blue Kaioken as a thing at all and never addresses it. So it can be assumed that Blue Kaioken (and the rules surrounding why it can't be done in Super Saiyan) are strictly Toei's addition and not part of Toriyama's notes.

This is notable because Toei's Z anime features the anime-exclusive Otherworld Tournament arc where Goku does combine Kaioken and regular Super Saiyan and it works out great with no drawbacks.

So, of all the creators who have a hand in Dragon Ball:

  • Toriyama says "..."
  • Toyotarou says "..."
  • Toei says "You totally can combine Super Saiyan and Kaioken. Also, you absolutely cannot combine Super Saiyan and Kaioken. But you CAN combine Super Saiyan Blue and Kaioken."

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sgamer82 Since: Jan, 2001
#35737: Aug 19th 2019 at 4:17:06 PM

If it was the otherworld tournament, wouldn't that mean Goku was dead, and that the side effects aren't as severe like was the case with Super Saiyan 3?

HandsomeRob Leader of the Holey Brotherhood from The land of broken records Since: Jan, 2015
Leader of the Holey Brotherhood
#35738: Aug 19th 2019 at 4:19:29 PM

This is notable because Toei's Z anime features the anime-exclusive Otherworld Tournament arc where Goku does combine Kaioken and regular Super Saiyan and it works out great with no drawbacks.

I wouldn't say no drawbacks. He's clearly exhausted after doing so, enough that we can assume that if he wasn't already dead (and thus under the rules of being able to do things that would be more dangerous or exhausting for a living body) he'd have probably rekt himself something fierce.

Still, that's at least an acknowledgement of it being dangerous to combine Super Saiyan and Kaioken, which Toriyama never even gave us.

The best we can extrapolate is that if it was possible, he'd have tried it against Cell.

Then again, it's strange to me that he never worked on such a thing in the three years they were training for the androids either.

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Moth13 Since: Sep, 2010
#35739: Aug 19th 2019 at 6:03:55 PM

Cell suggests that everyone can do it, most just aren't stupid enough to try it. It's not that Vegeta and Goku can't achieve that form, it's that they know better.

Yeah I think the only person besides Trunks who does that is Caulifla, which is presented as Caulifla being a newbie to Super Saiyaning while Goku goes all teacher mode.

Which reminds me, the Tournament of Power also has Universe 3 (the nerd universe) using technology to make warriors on the level of gods. So there's examples of how absurd tech can get in this setting beyond Dr. Gero being an extreme outlier.

Edited by Moth13 on Aug 19th 2019 at 9:04:45 AM

Zeromaeus Since: May, 2010
#35740: Aug 19th 2019 at 9:15:07 PM

I missed it, but on Vegeta having the best beams: dude pulled out a beam in the manga that flat out gibbed Zamasu. Vegeta is the best at beams.

[up]Baby was also bio-tech based

Edited by Zeromaeus on Aug 19th 2019 at 12:16:34 PM

Weirdguy149 Former King from Lumiose City Since: Jul, 2014 Relationship Status: I'd jump in front of a train for ya!
Former King
#35741: Aug 19th 2019 at 9:19:11 PM

There's also General Rilldo in the ridiculously strong tech department. While his name is absolutely ridiculous, he's basically Magneto, to the point that he shifts into the metal planet that everyone's fighting on, much like Zamasu in the final stages of his fight.

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Soble Since: Dec, 2013
#35742: Aug 20th 2019 at 4:32:16 AM

A thought occurs: our introduction to Goku was him getting shot in the head. It doesn't do much, and Goku's reaction is to grab Bulma's car and hurl it some distance.

Our introduction to Raditz is, also, him getting shot in the head, or rather him catching the bullet right in front of his face and flicking it back at the shooter.

I'd never thought about that parallel before. I wonder if it was intentional.

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randomness4 Ghost '11 from The Land of Inconvenience Since: Sep, 2011
Ghost '11
#35743: Aug 20th 2019 at 4:43:13 AM

Violence is a Saiya-jin's natural response...

...to weapons.

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slimcoder The Head of the Hydra Since: May, 2013
The Head of the Hydra
#35744: Aug 20th 2019 at 4:47:46 AM

Its either that or eating.

"I am Alpharius. This is a lie."
Adannor (4 Score & 7 Years Ago)
#35745: Aug 20th 2019 at 4:55:43 AM

Yeah that's definitely intentional.

Nightwire Since: Feb, 2010
#35746: Aug 20th 2019 at 5:07:08 AM

Bold of you to assume Toriyama ever remembers anything to do a Call-Back.

Adannor (4 Score & 7 Years Ago)
#35747: Aug 20th 2019 at 5:12:54 AM

That is an iconic moment that is also in a very easy place to look up. Soo yeah I do think he would've bothered enough in this case.

Edited by Adannor on Aug 20th 2019 at 3:13:17 PM

fredhot16 Don't want to leave but cannot pretend from Baton Rogue, Louisiana. Since: Jan, 2015 Relationship Status: Too sexy for my shirt
Don't want to leave but cannot pretend
#35748: Aug 29th 2019 at 8:14:57 AM

Cross-posting from the dragon ball thread:

So, thought exercise: a female martial artist tries to study under Muten Roshi.

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ultimatepheer Since: Mar, 2011
#35749: Aug 29th 2019 at 8:29:11 AM

They suffer horribly.

Unless it's Videl, in which case Roshi suffers horribly instead.

JRads47 Since: Nov, 2014
#35750: Aug 29th 2019 at 9:17:41 AM

That's a can of worms waiting to burst right there.


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