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TobiasDrake (•̀⤙•́) (Edited uphill both ways) Relationship Status: Arm chopping is not a love language!
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#35701: Aug 19th 2019 at 7:06:29 AM

Personally I maintain that the Androids would have fit in better at a lower power level and as a conflict between Namek and actually fighting Frieza. Namek < Androids < Frieza < Cell < Majin Buu would have meshed pretty well for me as an escalation chain.

That being said, I also see logic in the argument, "Bulma made a f*cking time machine that apparently isn't even supposed to be possible by divine physics; why is everyone always on about the infinite energy generators?"

I think some of us cut Bulma more slack than we're necessarily willing to give Gero because she's been with us inventing zany shit for the whole series. Gero, meanwhile, was awkwardly retconned into the series with a vague association that he built Android 8, who was impressive for his time but isn't winning any arm-wrestling matches with even alien mooks.

So the leap from Android 8 and the RRA to "stronger than Frieza" can be a bit jarring. For me, personally, I actually wonder if I might have been more willing to accept him if Toriyama didn't try to connect him to the RRA, established weaksauce losers, and just said he's a dude that makes killer robots.

Edited by TobiasDrake on Aug 19th 2019 at 8:12:02 AM

My Tumblr. Currently side-by-side liveblogging Digimon Adventure, sub vs dub.
PushoverMediaCritic I'm sorry Tien, but I must go all out. from the Italy of America Since: Jul, 2015 Relationship Status: watch?v=dQw4w9WgXcQ
I'm sorry Tien, but I must go all out.
#35702: Aug 19th 2019 at 7:15:01 AM

That sounds like a "from mah butt" calculation, like most post-Frieza Battle Power claims.

And it is, what's your point? I picked that number specifically because it was 10,000 times stronger than Saiyan Saga KKx4 Goku, and it happens to fit in with power scaling and the few hard statements we do have, such as "Cell Games Goku is more than twice as strong as first ROSAT Vegeta" and "Goku never surpassed Freeza in his base form until after Battle of Gods". It's not a particularly implausible number.

Adannor (4 Score & 7 Years Ago)
#35703: Aug 19th 2019 at 7:18:03 AM

If you picked the number personally then how exactly is it supposed to reinforce any of your arguments? It doesn't carry any meaning besides things already said outside of it.

TobiasDrake (•̀⤙•́) (Edited uphill both ways) Relationship Status: Arm chopping is not a love language!
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#35704: Aug 19th 2019 at 7:19:59 AM

Making up your own numbers does not contribute anything of value to battle power discussions.

Further musing on the Androids: I also wonder if I might have been more willing to accept them had Mecha Frieza not been a thing.

Toriyama spent a lot of time in the Saiyan and Namek arcs hammering out a clear hierarchy of powers. This makes it a bit disbelief-shattering when he stacks the product of Earth science on some loser with a single-digit BP next to the product of a more advanced civilization's science on Frieza himself, then says the loser science wins.

Without Mecha Frieza, there could have been an implication of, "Frieza's cool, but he's still just a guy. This is why cyborg tech can really do!" And you could be like, "Wow, if the tech can do this to a human, imagine what it would do to a Namekian, a Saiyan, or Frieza himself!"

But with Mecha Frieza, it's just like, suddenly Earth is the most awesome planet in the galaxy and Earthlings are the ULTIMATE SPECIES, even though we've spent this entire series telling you the exact opposite thing. Because f*ck you, that's why.

My Tumblr. Currently side-by-side liveblogging Digimon Adventure, sub vs dub.
PushoverMediaCritic I'm sorry Tien, but I must go all out. from the Italy of America Since: Jul, 2015 Relationship Status: watch?v=dQw4w9WgXcQ
I'm sorry Tien, but I must go all out.
#35705: Aug 19th 2019 at 7:20:01 AM

I wasn't even making an argument in that post. I was making a humorous observation.

randomness4 Ghost '11 from The Land of Inconvenience Since: Sep, 2011
Ghost '11
#35706: Aug 19th 2019 at 7:23:25 AM

Everything's an argument on the inter-webs.

Rules of the Internet 45. Rule 45 is a lie. Check out my art if you notice.
HandsomeRob Leader of the Holey Brotherhood from The land of broken records Since: Jan, 2015
Leader of the Holey Brotherhood
#35707: Aug 19th 2019 at 7:23:50 AM

Personally I maintain that the Androids would have fit in better at a lower power level and as a conflict between Namek and actually fighting Frieza. Namek < Androids < Frieza < Cell < Majin Buu would have meshed pretty well for me as an escalation chain.

I've actually said they shouldn't have shown up after Namek myself, though I put them before even Raditz arriving. It feels weird after the planet busting aliens for the next threat to be purely Earthborn, when outside of Bulma, DB Earth has never shown the ability to create the kind of Technology to rival the higher space races. Hell, he could have had the Red Ribbon as a continued threat, taking note of Metallic's near win against Goku and sending more powerful androids to destroy him (including linking Cyborg Tao to them), but that would require Toriyama to consider actual Arc Welding, and his style is too loose for that.

That being said, I also see logic in the argument, "Bulma made a f*cking time machine that apparently isn't even supposed to be possible by divine physics; why is everyone always on about the infinite energy generators?"

I'd say that's fair, but...

I think some of us cut Bulma more slack than we're necessarily willing to give Gero because she's been with us inventing zany shit for the whole series. Gero, meanwhile, was awkwardly retconned into the series with a vague association that he built Android 8, who was impressive for his time but isn't winning any arm-wrestling matches with even alien mooks.

Yeah, I think you answer you're own question here.

So the leap from Android 8 and the RRA to "stronger than Frieza" can be a bit jarring. For me, personally, I actually wonder if I might have been more willing to accept him if Toriyama didn't try to connect him to the RRA, established weaksauce losers, and just said he's a dude that makes killer robots.

Yeah, that's not fair. Are they losers because they lost to Goku....because as we all know Goku is a massive outlier. I mean, despite the fact that a three years later Tien is a near match for Goku, I don't think he or anyone in the same tier could have wiped out an entire army (with the exception of King Piccolo). As a Saiyan, Goku was already born with massive advantages, and all the training her received just amplified that.

Edit:

Further musing on the Androids: I also wonder if I might have been more willing to accept them had Mecha Frieza not been a thing.

Toriyama spent a lot of time in the Saiyan and Namek arcs hammering out a clear hierarchy of powers. This makes it a bit disbelief-shattering when he stacks the product of Earth science on some loser with a single-digit BP next to the product of a more advanced civilization's science on Frieza himself, then says the loser science wins.

Without Mecha Frieza, there could have been an implication of, "Frieza's cool, but he's still just a guy. This is why cyborg tech can really do!" And you could be like, "Wow, if the tech can do this to a human, imagine what it would do to a Namekian, a Saiyan, or Frieza himself!"

But with Mecha Frieza, it's just like, suddenly Earth is the most awesome planet in the galaxy and Earthlings are the ULTIMATE SPECIES, even though we've spent this entire series telling you the exact opposite thing. Because f*ck you, that's why.

I think I might agree with all of this. But that's Toriyama for you. something will be the most important thing in the world...until it suddenly isn't. So Last Season happens lightning quick in this series.

Edited by HandsomeRob on Aug 19th 2019 at 8:28:25 AM

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TobiasDrake (•̀⤙•́) (Edited uphill both ways) Relationship Status: Arm chopping is not a love language!
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#35708: Aug 19th 2019 at 7:27:25 AM

Yeah, that's not fair. Are they losers because they lost to Goku....because as we all know Goku is a massive outlier. I mean, despite the fact that a three years later Tien is a near match for Goku, I don't think he or anyone in the same tier could have wiped out an entire army (with the exception of King Piccolo). As a Saiyan, Goku was already born with massive advantages, and all the training her received just amplified that.

They RRA are losers on the Dragon Ball power scale. They're Earthling mooks, and the series repeatedly hammers us with the point that Earth is a loser planet full of losers, and even the most powerful Earthlings are losers next to the most powerful warriors of other races, and this loser planet with its loser powers needs to just accept being losers.

That is precisely what makes it so jarring for the loser mook-army on the loser planet for losers to suddenly turn around and be like, "Here are some Earthlings who are the most powerful beings in the entire universe. Because science, I guess?"

Edited by TobiasDrake on Aug 19th 2019 at 8:28:28 AM

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Adannor (4 Score & 7 Years Ago)
#35709: Aug 19th 2019 at 7:28:37 AM

"And you could be like, "Wow, if the tech can do this to a human, imagine what it would do to a Namekian, a Saiyan, or Frieza himself!" "

Well it would not really do anything if it just replaces the power sources. It wouldn't be a power multiplier, but just a fixed number of its own.

Same how it wouldn't have Namekian regen or other tricks.

HandsomeRob Leader of the Holey Brotherhood from The land of broken records Since: Jan, 2015
Leader of the Holey Brotherhood
#35710: Aug 19th 2019 at 7:29:01 AM

[up][up]

I can get that. Added a bit more in an edit as well.

But yeah, considering it's the primary setting, Earth really gets the short end of the stick. Everything about it is small time.

Edited by HandsomeRob on Aug 19th 2019 at 8:30:03 AM

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Eriorguez Since: Jun, 2009
#35711: Aug 19th 2019 at 7:31:14 AM

For the record, the Moon is around 1% of Earth's mass. A Moon burster being 1% of the strenght of an Earth burster can technically work: If 140 is enough to destroy the Moon, 14000 would be enough to destroy the Earth.

Mere coincidence, Toriyama is not good with numbers; remember he cares FAR more about the gags and the vehicles in the covers than about the power levels.

TobiasDrake (•̀⤙•́) (Edited uphill both ways) Relationship Status: Arm chopping is not a love language!
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#35712: Aug 19th 2019 at 7:32:57 AM

Huh. That is a neat coincidence.

I wonder how well that stacks up with Perfecter Cell being able to destroy the solar system? ...probably would help if we had any idea what his battle power is. Shame he's so far beyond the point where we stopped getting numbers.

Edited by TobiasDrake on Aug 19th 2019 at 8:33:48 AM

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TyeDyeWildebeest Unreasonably Quirky from Big Rock Candy Mountain Since: Dec, 2010 Relationship Status: How does it feel to treat me like you do?
Unreasonably Quirky
#35713: Aug 19th 2019 at 7:43:36 AM

Yeah... NGL, I found that jarring too.

Regardless of how brilliant Dr. Gero was, I'm reluctant to believe that one scientist working alone for thirty or so years - assumedly for free, since his employers were vaporized and no sane government would fund such a project - could create four perpetual motion machines with the power to casually destroy planets.

Edited by TyeDyeWildebeest on Aug 19th 2019 at 10:44:01 AM

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Hylarn (Don’t ask)
#35714: Aug 19th 2019 at 7:46:57 AM

For the record, the Moon is around 1% of Earth's mass. A Moon burster being 1% of the strenght of an Earth burster can technically work: If 140 is enough to destroy the Moon, 14000 would be enough to destroy the Earth.

That's not how that works. You need to overcome the gravitational binding energy. It takes about 1800 times more energy to destroy the earth than the moon

Eriorguez Since: Jun, 2009
#35715: Aug 19th 2019 at 8:36:48 AM

Oh, thanks for that! Yeah, that lands us with 252,000 for a Earth burster. Freeza was at 530,000 when he blew planet Vegeta up, but said planet has 10 times the gravity of Earth, so, well, math won't do the trick.

However, that ends up making it so either 139 is overkill for a moon burster, or 530,000 is not enough for a Vegeta burster.

And damn, a sun burster would be incredibly high, seeing the Sun has 2000 times Earth's mass, and 28 times its surface gravity.

PushoverMediaCritic I'm sorry Tien, but I must go all out. from the Italy of America Since: Jul, 2015 Relationship Status: watch?v=dQw4w9WgXcQ
I'm sorry Tien, but I must go all out.
#35716: Aug 19th 2019 at 8:57:56 AM

I like to imagine that Vegeta's Final Flash against Cell destroyed a sun eventually.

HailMuffins Since: May, 2016 Relationship Status: Shipping fictional characters
#35717: Aug 19th 2019 at 9:18:04 AM

It eventually blew up the planet of the Clorfors refugees, to the joy of a thankful galaxy.

Stupid, money-grubbing Clorfors...trying to clorf me out of my money..

Yumil Mad Archivist Since: Mar, 2016
Mad Archivist
#35718: Aug 19th 2019 at 9:21:58 AM

[up][up]do we have any idea how strong that one was ? I think it's stated it WOULD have killed cell if he hadn't dodged at the last second, so it's progably stronger than SS 2 gohan's instant kamehameha ? That's... quite a lot, considering both goku and gohan were much stronger than vegeta even before SS 2.

Edited by Yumil on Aug 19th 2019 at 6:22:13 PM

"when you stare too long into the abyss, Xehanort takes advantage of the distraction to break into your house and steal all your shit."
WillKeaton from Alberta, Canada Since: Jun, 2010
#35719: Aug 19th 2019 at 9:33:50 AM

Cell didn't dodge at the last second. What happened was, Vegeta wanted a shot that would both hit Cell, and NOT blow up the planet. He could have hit Cell full on, but the angle or whatever meant doing so would also blow up the Earth. So instead he went with a shot that didn't blow up Earth, but only partially blew apart Cell.

TobiasDrake (•̀⤙•́) (Edited uphill both ways) Relationship Status: Arm chopping is not a love language!
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#35720: Aug 19th 2019 at 10:43:45 AM

do we have any idea how strong that one was ? I think it's stated it WOULD have killed cell if he hadn't dodged at the last second, so it's progably stronger than SS 2 gohan's instant kamehameha ? That's... quite a lot, considering both goku and gohan were much stronger than vegeta even before SS 2.

It should not be understated: Vegeta's beams are amazing.

It's, like, the one thing he's actually good at.

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WillKeaton from Alberta, Canada Since: Jun, 2010
#35721: Aug 19th 2019 at 10:49:12 AM

How many death beams have been fired from the Earth and into outer space? They should be documented. They're like Earth's number one export. Should probably count the ones on Namek too.

Edited by WillKeaton on Aug 19th 2019 at 12:36:47 PM

HandsomeRob Leader of the Holey Brotherhood from The land of broken records Since: Jan, 2015
Leader of the Holey Brotherhood
#35722: Aug 19th 2019 at 10:53:53 AM

Vegeta is the Kame Hame Hadoken king yes.

Nobody Beam Spams like the Prince of All Saiyans...

Shame nobody's Beam Spam is subjected to The Worf Barrage like the prince of all Saiyans as well.[lol]

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alekos23 Since: Mar, 2013
#35723: Aug 19th 2019 at 11:30:18 AM

the whole beam thing makes Trunk's unreasonably buff bird's speed issues weird. Cell probably wouldn't let him launch or charge any at him, but they should probably be stronger in that state. Xenoverse does it if I'm not mistaken.

Guess he's just that green.

TobiasDrake (•̀⤙•́) (Edited uphill both ways) Relationship Status: Arm chopping is not a love language!
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#35724: Aug 19th 2019 at 11:33:10 AM

Cell suggests that everyone can do it, most just aren't stupid enough to try it. It's not that Vegeta and Goku can't achieve that form, it's that they know better.

I wonder if Vegeta tapped into Super Saiyan (Unreasonably Buff Bird) when he launched his Final Flash? Seeing as Cell was perfectly willing to stand there and try and tank it, there's no reason not to.

Edited by TobiasDrake on Aug 19th 2019 at 12:33:41 PM

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alekos23 Since: Mar, 2013
#35725: Aug 19th 2019 at 11:34:48 AM

I recall his size pulsating quite a bit there so probably? But that's an anime thing, I assume the manga was faster than that?


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