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randomness4 Ghost '11 from The Land of Inconvenience Since: Sep, 2011
Ghost '11
#35676: Aug 18th 2019 at 11:52:20 PM

I think Dragon Ball has a plot hole in it.

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fredhot16 Don't want to leave but cannot pretend from Baton Rogue, Louisiana. Since: Jan, 2015 Relationship Status: Too sexy for my shirt
Don't want to leave but cannot pretend
#35677: Aug 19th 2019 at 12:33:33 AM

It NEVER made any sense for 17 and 18 to be stronger than Super Saiyans, especially when Gero didn’t know they existed so it was by accident.

He accidentally made beings stronger then Frieza.

Edited by fredhot16 on Aug 19th 2019 at 12:36:50 PM

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LSBK Since: Sep, 2014
#35678: Aug 19th 2019 at 12:36:04 AM

One has nothing to do with the other. Gero doesn't need to know about Super Saiyans to want to try and make them as strong as possible. And if that happens to make them stronger than the Super Saiyans at the time, well that just works out.

I've never understood why people were so hung up on that.

Edited by LSBK on Aug 19th 2019 at 2:36:31 PM

Anomalocaris20 from Sagittarius A* Since: Sep, 2010 Relationship Status: Love blinded me (with science!)
#35679: Aug 19th 2019 at 12:44:50 AM

The Androids were, as far as Gero knew, super-duper-overkill.

Instead they wound up just being plain old super-overkill, no dupers attached.

You cannot firmly grasp the true form of Squidward's technique!
JRads47 Since: Nov, 2014
#35680: Aug 19th 2019 at 12:50:09 AM

Gero playing 4D chess with his preparations

Too bad Goku derped his way into winning a match against him

Edited by JRads47 on Aug 19th 2019 at 3:50:41 PM

Anomalocaris20 from Sagittarius A* Since: Sep, 2010 Relationship Status: Love blinded me (with science!)
#35681: Aug 19th 2019 at 12:53:02 AM

His one creation that wasn't specifically designed to kill Goku, just destroy the whole world, wound up killing him.

But only for 7 years.

And then one of his other creations saved the entire multiverse.

You cannot firmly grasp the true form of Squidward's technique!
PushoverMediaCritic I'm sorry Tien, but I must go all out. from the Italy of America Since: Jul, 2015 Relationship Status: watch?v=dQw4w9WgXcQ
I'm sorry Tien, but I must go all out.
#35682: Aug 19th 2019 at 1:13:36 AM

Androids 17 and 18 must have been, at minimum, stronger than Freeza with a Power Level around 120 million, with most reasonable estimations putting them around 350 million.

Gero's last recorded data of Goku had his Power Level at just over 8,000, and able to go a bit over 32,000 with Kaioken x 4. Gero must have REALLY wanted Goku dead, he made his Androids 10,000 times stronger than what he last measured Goku at. I know he mentions that he also factored in Goku's expected growth over time, but still.

fredhot16 Don't want to leave but cannot pretend from Baton Rogue, Louisiana. Since: Jan, 2015 Relationship Status: Too sexy for my shirt
Don't want to leave but cannot pretend
#35683: Aug 19th 2019 at 1:43:06 AM

[up][up][up][up][up]...Yes, it does. At the very least, it would introduce a smidgen of sense to 17 and 18's power.

Which is more believable: Gero making Androids that are beyond Freiza with the knowledge of the power of Super Saiyans or him making beings that were stronger then the most powerful being in the galaxy by accident while still thinking he could take Goku because he was at Pre-Namek levels?

Mind you, in either scenario, he does not have the logistical support of the Red Ribbon Army, who were the ones responsible for the original research and creation of the Androids, for this endeavor (or, indeed, anybody except himself) nor has Earth's technology ever been established as being able to reach the level of damage of a planet buster (which would require the power of, using an example from Linkara, 400,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000 Czar Bombas- the most powerful nuke made by 2014 on this Earth).

Nor does he make himself or the robot he went in to actually go off Goku that powerful or even close. What would overkill be to a person who wants Goku, who's pretty much top dog with Piccolo as the closest rival before Raditz came and has slaughtered the Red Ribbon Army by himself as a teenager, as a corpse? Allow me to quote The Seventy Maxims of Maximally Effective Mercenaries: "There is no 'overkill.' There is only 'open fire' and 'I need to reload'."

So, credibility is stretched as thin as can be to accommodate their existence.

In a series where two of the main characters are a space monkey-child and a demon-slug reincarnation of what is essentially the devil, this is ludicrous.

Edited by fredhot16 on Aug 19th 2019 at 1:53:52 AM

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Adannor (4 Score & 7 Years Ago)
#35684: Aug 19th 2019 at 1:52:34 AM

He built himself and 19 using a different power source technology, didn't he? That accounts for power discrepancy.

Yes, a Mad Scientist holed up in his cave built galactic conqueror level cyborgs (and a robot) by accident while trying to just make the strongest thing he could. This is ludicrous, but is also completely fine with the overarching ludicrousness of the setting. It is both incredibly hilarious and incredibly awesome.

fredhot16 Don't want to leave but cannot pretend from Baton Rogue, Louisiana. Since: Jan, 2015 Relationship Status: Too sexy for my shirt
Don't want to leave but cannot pretend
#35685: Aug 19th 2019 at 2:12:01 AM

[up]Why would he use a different power source? What was wrong with the ones that made planet busters, especially for taking on Son Goku, a person who slaughtered an army at 14? Why couldn't he adapt that source for himself and the robot he made specifically for the purpose of offing Goku?

It's ludicrous in the wrong way, in the way that makes you scratch your head and go "what"? I can take monkey-children. I can take space monkey-children. I can take space demon-slug reincarnations. I can even take a perverted hermit owning his own island with a with a turtle.

Androids being stronger then the strongest being in the galaxy on a planet whose technology has not been established to be able to get to that power by accident by a recluse with no support structure, now you've got my goat.

Even the [up][up][up]numbers seem to back me on how much of a ridiculous leap in power that is. "10,000 times stronger than what he last measured Goku at"?

Even before I began looking at media with a more critical eye, I thought this was a bit much.

Edited by fredhot16 on Aug 19th 2019 at 2:29:21 AM

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FrozenWolf2 (4 Score & 7 Years Ago)
#35686: Aug 19th 2019 at 2:45:02 AM

This is why powers level left once Freezer's scouter broke cause toriyama was over inflating the numbers cause He thought Big numbers means drama but all he did was OVERCOMPENSATE

Basically We had just hit barely over 100k by the time Ginyu was beaten... by the end of the Freiza fight we would have jumped from 500K to over 100 mil in the span of one fight

Honestly Gero not being aware of Super Saiyan is the only plot hole 'and possible the only hard evidence that Toriyama was playing Create the villain during the android arc'

Gero should Totally know about Super Saiyan cause Cell has Freezer's DNA in him... which only accrues cause Freezer comes to Earth and is Killed by Trunks.

If Gero used Trunks as the Baseline for what he thinks a saiyan will become... Suddenly Trunks whole... They are only stronger then me in my timeline cause there are 2 of them while Here one is more then enough for Trunks and Vegeta at the same time.

which would thematically circle around to cell's whole " This is All your Fault Trunks"

Praise be to the absolute Queen
HailMuffins Since: May, 2016 Relationship Status: Shipping fictional characters
#35687: Aug 19th 2019 at 3:39:24 AM

Whatever else you say about the TOP, it did good work at bridging the gender gap a bit, even if one of the female figthers introduced was a bit of a pain to watch.

But I'm guessing you mean among the main cast.

Soble Since: Dec, 2013
#35688: Aug 19th 2019 at 4:19:44 AM

So Broly 2 will be:

  • Second Cumming
  • Rebrolying
  • Broly and Brolier

Broly 3 will be:

  • Biohazard
  • Broly 3: The Thing

Bojack will be... no idea.

Can't wait to see what they do with Hirudegarn.

I'M MR. MEESEEKS, LOOK AT ME!
Saiga Since: Feb, 2011 Relationship Status: Getting away with murder
#35689: Aug 19th 2019 at 4:56:30 AM

Yes, it does. At the very least, it would introduce a smidgen of sense to 17 and 18's power.

Which is more believable: Gero making Androids that are beyond Freiza with the knowledge of the power of Super Saiyans or him making beings that were stronger then the most powerful being in the galaxy by accident while still thinking he could take Goku because he was at Pre-Namek levels?

No, it makes no difference. Gero explicitly started out making the Androids as powerful as he could make them, and toned them down with each model due to not being able to control them.

Knowledge of the Super Saiyans or Freeza wouldn't have changed how powerful he can make his Androids.

If Gero knew how strong Super Saiyans were: he'd make the Androids as strong as he could
If Gero didn't know how strong Super Saiyans were: he'd make the Androids as strong as he could

Edited by Saiga on Aug 19th 2019 at 9:57:12 PM

PushoverMediaCritic I'm sorry Tien, but I must go all out. from the Italy of America Since: Jul, 2015 Relationship Status: watch?v=dQw4w9WgXcQ
I'm sorry Tien, but I must go all out.
#35690: Aug 19th 2019 at 5:04:26 AM

nor has Earth's technology ever been established as being able to reach the level of damage of a planet buster

I beg to differ. The gap between moon-buster and planet-buster isn't that wide in the world of Dragon Ball and Android 8, the Pirate Robot, Staff Officer Black's Battle Jacket, and Cyborg Taopaipai were all as strong or stronger than Roshi at the 21st Tenkaichi Budokai, who is an established moon-buster in terms of power.

The series also later establishes that Bulma is potentially the smartest person in all of creation, and she was having trouble at first figuring out the intricacies of Gero's designs. Freeza's top scientists are a bunch of loser scrubs compared to Gero, Bulma, and Dr. Briefs.

Edited by PushoverMediaCritic on Aug 19th 2019 at 5:05:44 AM

HailMuffins Since: May, 2016 Relationship Status: Shipping fictional characters
#35691: Aug 19th 2019 at 5:13:54 AM

The same Bulma that tapped into the realm of the Gods with her time-machine way before any of the Gods ever showed up.

Demongodofchaos2 Face me now, bitch! from In a Cultivation World (Ancient one) Relationship Status: 700 wives and 300 concubines
Face me now, bitch!
#35692: Aug 19th 2019 at 5:17:46 AM

[up][up] Roshi's Moonbusting is considered a massive outlier by the point in the story he did it, as said feat is never surpassed until the beginning of Z, and the fact that even Demon King Piccolo's strongest attacks are still city tier. Considering it was still a gag manga at the point Roshi blew it up, its understandable, but the moon is never repaired until around the time Goku starts training with Kami, by which the Demon King Piccolo arc shifted the manga to being a full on battle manga at that point.

Edited by Demongodofchaos2 on Aug 19th 2019 at 8:19:12 AM

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Saiga Since: Feb, 2011 Relationship Status: Getting away with murder
#35693: Aug 19th 2019 at 5:18:01 AM

Ignoring the Gods that appeared before that, technically Bulma didn't do that until after they showed up because time travel

Adannor (4 Score & 7 Years Ago)
#35694: Aug 19th 2019 at 5:58:52 AM

She wasn't getting any tips from them, so it still counts. She just scienced up time travel in a wartorn world.

Edited by Adannor on Aug 19th 2019 at 4:00:29 PM

ultimatepheer Since: Mar, 2011
#35695: Aug 19th 2019 at 6:27:41 AM

Hot take: Videl should've shown up earlier, and we should've seen her becoming friends with Gohan during the timeskip.

Or better yet, no timeskip, just cute interactions between young Videl and Gohan, Goku gets to stay dead and indulge his fight lust with the ghosts of every strong fighter ever in the afterlife, and Dragon Ball gets to go back to a Gag Manga like Toriyama created it as.

randomness4 Ghost '11 from The Land of Inconvenience Since: Sep, 2011
Ghost '11
#35696: Aug 19th 2019 at 6:37:42 AM

If there was no time skip, she wouldn't have existed...

Is that an "oh no"...?

Rules of the Internet 45. Rule 45 is a lie. Check out my art if you notice.
PushoverMediaCritic I'm sorry Tien, but I must go all out. from the Italy of America Since: Jul, 2015 Relationship Status: watch?v=dQw4w9WgXcQ
I'm sorry Tien, but I must go all out.
#35697: Aug 19th 2019 at 6:45:54 AM

Roshi's Moonbusting is considered a massive outlier by the point in the story he did it, as said feat is never surpassed until the beginning of Z, and the fact that even Demon King Piccolo's strongest attacks are still city tier.

Except it's absolutely not an outlier when using actual Power Levels and comparing to when Piccolo blew up the moon in Z. Piccolo had a Power Level of just over 400, and he destroyed the moon easily with just a basic, uncharged ki blast. Roshi destroyed the moon using a fully charged Kamehameha while in his buff state. We know that the Kamehameha is a power multiplier, and based on Trunks we can assume the buff state is one too.

TobiasDrake (•̀⤙•́) (Edited uphill both ways) Relationship Status: Arm chopping is not a love language!
(•̀⤙•́)
#35698: Aug 19th 2019 at 6:54:52 AM

Androids 17 and 18 must have been, at minimum, stronger than Freeza with a Power Level around 120 million, with most reasonable estimations putting them around 350 million.

That sounds like a "from mah butt" calculation, like most post-Frieza Battle Power claims.

I beg to differ. The gap between moon-buster and planet-buster isn't that wide in the world of Dragon Ball and Android 8, the Pirate Robot, Staff Officer Black's Battle Jacket, and Cyborg Taopaipai were all as strong or stronger than Roshi at the 21st Tenkaichi Budokai, who is an established moon-buster in terms of power.

First known moon-buster: Kame-sennin, who had a battle power somewhere below 139. 139 was his level after training for the 22nd Tenkaichi Budokai, so one can assume he was lower than that at the 21st.

First known planet-buster: Vegeta, battle power 18,000.

So the difference between moon-busting and planet-busting is a factor somewhere over 129.5x, depending on what Kame-sennin's true moon-busting battle power was. And that's also without factoring in that beams magnify their user's battle power, and more specifically that the Galick Gun demonstrably does so to a greater extent than the Kamehameha does.

For point of comparison, if Kame-sennin had transformed into Super Saiyan 2, he still couldn't destroy a planet.

Frieza, incidentally, is at a battle power over 863,309x greater than moon-busting.

Edited by TobiasDrake on Aug 19th 2019 at 7:57:19 AM

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HandsomeRob Leader of the Holey Brotherhood from The land of broken records Since: Jan, 2015
Leader of the Holey Brotherhood
#35699: Aug 19th 2019 at 6:59:27 AM

...Power Levels.

I hate them. So much.

And yet, when they were introduced, they did serve a purpose.

Still, we've had this conversation so many times before, and it's never gone anywhere. Maybe we should just stop.

One Strip! One Strip!
Adannor (4 Score & 7 Years Ago)
#35700: Aug 19th 2019 at 7:02:57 AM

Yeaah the numbers don't mean anything. Even when they are explicitly given in supplemental books. Maybe especially when they are given in supplemental books.

Earthling Science is still just as much of an OP cheat as monkeys' powerscaling and deserves respect tongue

Edited by Adannor on Aug 19th 2019 at 5:04:24 PM


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