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HandsomeRob Leader of the Holey Brotherhood from The land of broken records Since: Jan, 2015
Leader of the Holey Brotherhood
#34901: Mar 28th 2019 at 9:37:25 AM

Huh. That actually means that as long as the Z Warriors knew about the energy draining and kept their Ki low, they could minimize their losses then?

I guess then that my belief that energy draining was sufficient was wrong. No wonder 17 and 18 were needed. It wasn't just the unlimited energy.

Of course, why Gero didn't know about their ability to raise and lower their powers is a huge question, but it may be more he didn't realize them lowering their powers could cramp his ability to drain them.

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ultimatepheer Since: Mar, 2011
#34902: Mar 28th 2019 at 9:39:26 AM

It makes sense for him to not realize it; "Hm, these people with a lot of power are keeping some of that power inside of themselves, and now they're keeping more of it inside of themselves than usual! Oh well, I'm pulling it out of them anyway, probably won't matter."

Moth13 Since: Sep, 2010
#34903: Mar 28th 2019 at 9:44:14 AM

That's how Saiga interpreted the line, but there's definitely other ways to take what Piccolo said. The way I read it was that Piccolo's energy was drained a lot, but it was only the baseline energy because Gero didn't know how to supercharge the energy for attacks like the Z Fighters do, so he couldn't get much use out of it.

WillKeaton from Alberta, Canada Since: Jun, 2010
#34904: Mar 28th 2019 at 12:45:49 PM

Like, the energy draining thing sounds great on paper but Gero doesn't know anything about fighting. Also, are we sure Gero doesn't know about them raising their power level? Considering how long he's been observing them that doesn't make sense. I don't recall him being surprised by anyone raising their power level like every single one of Freeza's soldiers were.

Saiga Since: Feb, 2011 Relationship Status: Getting away with murder
#34905: Mar 28th 2019 at 1:36:50 PM

[up][up] That interpretation doesn't make sense, or Vegeta would've also not been bothered by having a lot of energy drained.

TobiasDrake (•̀⤙•́) (Edited uphill both ways) Relationship Status: Arm chopping is not a love language!
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#34906: Mar 28th 2019 at 2:05:06 PM

Just another reason why infinite energy is the superior model.

Honestly, the whole energy-draining thing has always been dumb to me. Like, it sounds cool on paper. "You may be five times more powerful than me, but so long as I can survive 20 minutes in grappling range of you, I can become your peer! While you are wailing on my face for that entire time!'

Like. You can tell Gero isn't a fighter 'cause he thought this was a good idea. But there is a huge, glaring, obvious, inescapable flaw in the concept, one that Vegeta demonstrates very aptly.

As a playing field leveler, energy-draining is pretty shit. Cell's the only one who's actually able to put it to decent use by not trying to drain the Super Strong Guys Who Will Break My Face but instead focusing on Katamari Damacy-ing the planet.

Edited by TobiasDrake on Mar 28th 2019 at 3:06:41 AM

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HandsomeRob Leader of the Holey Brotherhood from The land of broken records Since: Jan, 2015
Leader of the Holey Brotherhood
#34907: Mar 28th 2019 at 2:13:04 PM

There's also Moro from the Super Manga, who makes it work via not needing physical contact to do it, and being able to drain anyone within a certain radius.

He sucked the power from Vegeta (who he was actively fighting) and Goku (who was just off to the side watching), as well as a bunch of Namekians who were in the area, leaving the former two unable to go beyond base (Goku can't even use Instant Transmission because he's so weak...even though there's never been any indication he needed Ki to do it, but I suppose it makes sense).

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WillKeaton from Alberta, Canada Since: Jun, 2010
#34908: Mar 28th 2019 at 2:22:57 PM

I think that's what Gero was on that island for. He was either there to A. Do a field test of the new android design or B. He wanted to absorb people's energy to make himself stronger. Probably both. It is also possible that the energy draining model has the potential to be stronger than the infinite energy model, were it given the chance to absorb enough energy. The other thing that may be going on is that it was easier for Gero to put his brain in an entirely artificial body than it was for him to do to his own body what he did to 17 and 18. Although, I can't image anything that would be more extreme than tearing out your brain and sticking it in a robot.

TobiasDrake (•̀⤙•́) (Edited uphill both ways) Relationship Status: Arm chopping is not a love language!
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#34909: Mar 28th 2019 at 2:32:39 PM

He could have torn out his brain and put it in a 16-type body.

But I digress. The infinite energy model's "potential" only accounts for so much. You could have all the potential in the world but it doesn't mean a damn thing if you don't do anything with it. Gohan.

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WillKeaton from Alberta, Canada Since: Jun, 2010
#34910: Mar 28th 2019 at 2:42:20 PM

What is the reason 16 was so strong anyway? 17 and 18 were humans that had those infinite energy generators put in, 19 and 20 were obviously built to capitalize on the energy absorption thing, but what makes 16 tick? He's clearly synthetic, but what's his power source? How did he end up being stronger than 17 and 18?

HandsomeRob Leader of the Holey Brotherhood from The land of broken records Since: Jan, 2015
Leader of the Holey Brotherhood
#34911: Mar 28th 2019 at 2:42:55 PM

This is true.

Also, if your opponent is just suddenly more powerful than you.

I really wish Toriyama had more ways to up the stakes beyond even higher Power Level.

Especially since it doesn't take much for a character to be so strong the other fighters can't even hope to scratch him.

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WillKeaton from Alberta, Canada Since: Jun, 2010
#34912: Mar 28th 2019 at 2:54:11 PM

Babidi had magic powers. With some creative spellcasting he could have been a threat. He wasn't, but if Toriyama wanted to he could have been one. Instead we got Buu, who does have a giant power level.

Actually, Buu, Cell and Zamasu do have one thing besides their power level that makes them a threat. They have regenerative powers. Like, if Cell couldn't regenerate, Vegeta would have crippled him within minutes of him becoming perfect and Goku would have outright killed him. Hell, 16 ripped off Cell's tail, so that would have been the end of the threat right there with no regeneration.

If you want other ways to make a villain that's a threat, but not have a high power level, you could have someone with psychic powers that allows them to mess with their opponents minds, making them see things that aren't there, or just causing them brain pain.

Edited by WillKeaton on Mar 28th 2019 at 3:57:44 AM

HandsomeRob Leader of the Holey Brotherhood from The land of broken records Since: Jan, 2015
Leader of the Holey Brotherhood
#34913: Mar 28th 2019 at 2:57:10 PM

Well, high power levels just seems to be a standard of the series.

It's been shown before that even if you have some kind of extra ability, if you can't punch in the same weight class as the guy you're fighting, then as soon as they bullshit a way around that ability, you're screwed.

Just look at poor Spike the Devil man. Guy should have been practically invincible.

You can't put all your eggs in one basket in the DB verse. Only Strong and Skilled matters.

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JRads47 Since: Nov, 2014
#34914: Mar 28th 2019 at 3:18:50 PM

[up]Props to Tenkaichi 3 for giving Spike something to accomplish.

Saiga Since: Feb, 2011 Relationship Status: Getting away with murder
#34915: Mar 28th 2019 at 4:10:45 PM

Energy draining is an awesome power. You deny your opponent any ki blasts, shutting down their ranged options and forcing them into melee - which helps the grabbing strategy.

It doesn't help if your opponent is many times stronger than you, but that's true of basically everything in Dragon Balls.

And the series outlines that the perpetual energy models were not an option for Gero.

What is the reason 16 was so strong anyway? 17 and 18 were humans that had those infinite energy generators put in, 19 and 20 were obviously built to capitalize on the energy absorption thing, but what makes 16 tick? He's clearly synthetic, but what's his power source? How did he end up being stronger than 17 and 18?

So the original story of the Androids is that every Android leading up to 19 and 20 was deemed a failure. Android 16 was incredibly powerful and had perpetual energy, but his personality made him a failure and Gero couldn't control him. This is apparently caused by him being too powerful. So Gero creates 17, using a human base and lowering his power significantly. 17 is still too powerful, so he creates 18 to be less powerful again. She also isn't obedient, so he shuts them down and goes back to the energy absorbing models and creates Android 19, which he considers the first success. Then he creates Android 20's body for himself, and makes it stronger than 19.

17 later says that Gero made himself an energy-absorbing type because it would be easier to control.

Then in more recent times Toriyama retconned 16's strength as a case of favouritism because 16 was modelled after his son.

Edited by Saiga on Mar 28th 2019 at 9:26:50 PM

Medigo03 Since: Sep, 2013
#34916: Mar 28th 2019 at 4:14:50 PM

Its kinda limited if you have to absorb through the hand though.

But that reminds me of GT with Super 17 and Goku's dumbass strategy of testing his full-body draining ability with his strongest blasts.

Moth13 Since: Sep, 2010
#34917: Mar 28th 2019 at 4:22:36 PM

That interpretation doesn't make sense, or Vegeta would've also not been bothered by having a lot of energy drained.

Vegeta didn't get a senzu bean like Piccolo did. Not until after the fight anyway.

randomness4 Ghost '11 from The Land of Inconvenience Since: Sep, 2011
Ghost '11
#34918: Mar 28th 2019 at 5:18:46 PM

He had to kill the dude first.

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WillKeaton from Alberta, Canada Since: Jun, 2010
#34919: Mar 28th 2019 at 6:43:34 PM

Do you think 16 may have been so strong that there was a concern that he might be unable to control his power and explode?

Saiga Since: Feb, 2011 Relationship Status: Getting away with murder
#34920: Mar 28th 2019 at 8:12:33 PM

[up][up][up] So your interpretation is that Gero took most of Piccolo's energy, but after Piccolo was restored to full, he's still able to win because he's amplifying his energy beyond his 'full' power?

Because that doesn't match what we were shown in previous arcs. For starters the characters never use their full power until they start fighting, and we see that their full power can be measured when they use it, even if they can quickly lower and raise in bursts (like Goku Vs the Ginyus).

Gero measures Piccolo's power as being weaker than him before the absorption, and doesn't understand why Piccolo can be stronger than him after that point. That fits well with Piccolo's energy being suppressed because that's what the characters normally do.

Piccolo increasing his power through amplification is something the Kaio-ken does, so it'd be very weird if the characters could do so without the technique.

HandsomeRob Leader of the Holey Brotherhood from The land of broken records Since: Jan, 2015
Leader of the Holey Brotherhood
#34921: Mar 28th 2019 at 8:20:49 PM

Well, the Kai version implied they all learned how to do so in short bursts.

That's just Kai though, as there's never been any indication that any of them learned the Kaioken due to not being skilled enough (hah!) and not having time.

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PushoverMediaCritic I'm sorry Tien, but I must go all out. from the Italy of America Since: Jul, 2015 Relationship Status: watch?v=dQw4w9WgXcQ
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#34922: Mar 28th 2019 at 10:04:32 PM

Pretty sure that was in the manga, too. It didn't really come up again, but Piccolo stated that everyone had figured out how to increase their power in short bursts. Now, whether it works under the same principle as the Kaioken or the charged ki attacks is unknown, but that was what he said.

I kind of like the idea that everyone, off-screen, figured out how to amplify their energy for regular punches and kicks instead of just for big ki attacks.

Edited by PushoverMediaCritic on Mar 28th 2019 at 10:05:21 AM

HandsomeRob Leader of the Holey Brotherhood from The land of broken records Since: Jan, 2015
Leader of the Holey Brotherhood
#34923: Mar 28th 2019 at 10:06:58 PM

Really?

I'll have to check that out. I don't remember that (though my Manga fu is weaker than you or Saiga).

I also like the idea though, even though, like so many things in this series the other characters (barring Piccolo in this case) wouldn't get much chance to show it off.

I do think that it makes sense to be connected to the Kaioken. That concept is like, it's core principle. Buffing yourself with a burst of ki for a few second to increase your power.

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Saiga Since: Feb, 2011 Relationship Status: Getting away with murder
#34924: Mar 28th 2019 at 10:40:19 PM

This is the line:

Chapter: 346 (DBZ 152), P14.3
Piccolo: “Commit this to memory: when we fight, we amplify what you guys call ‘energy’, causing it to explode. That’s why the energy you stole from me earlier doesn’t matter…”

This is what I interpreted as being similar to what Goku did against the Ginyu Force, keeping his power suppressed to 5,000 but rapidly raising it while attacking - so quickly, Vegeta was the only one to notice it:

Chapter: 281 (DBZ 87), P11.2-4
Jheese: “Wh-what’s going on…?! There’s no mistake that his battle power is only 5,000…”
Vegeta: “Ka-Kakarot rapidly heightens his battle power for the brief instant when he attacks…That’s probably to decrease unnecessary energy consumption…It’s for an extremely brief instant, so even the scouters probably can’t pick up on it…Th-this is an outrageous battle power…H-how did he get that kind of power?...”

And we later see that Goku can power-up normally to sustain that level of power.

The two are described so similarily that I believe they're the same phenomena - it's not something that Piccolo indicates is new for them or recently learned, it's just something they do.

I find it unlikely that they'd start using a different way of powering up that has no basis in their previous fights based off a single line of dialogue that doesn't come up again.

Later on, 16 measures Piccolo's power with his sensors and can tell he rivals 17 and 18. If he was really amplifying his energy beyond that he would have made mincemeat of 17 instead of fighting evenly with him.

Edited by Saiga on Mar 29th 2019 at 3:41:47 AM

TobiasDrake (•̀⤙•́) (Edited uphill both ways) Relationship Status: Arm chopping is not a love language!
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#34925: Mar 29th 2019 at 5:59:07 AM

Imma throw my hat in the ring and say that based on that dialogue, it also sounds to me like Piccolo's just talking about powering up. A normal thing that all the fighters do. And not that all of Earth's fighters have invented a new form of Kaioken.

He's explaining ki-control basics to Gero, a non-martial artist piloting a robot body who has no actual idea how this whole ki thing works.

Edited by TobiasDrake on Mar 29th 2019 at 7:00:44 AM

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