TVTropes Now available in the app store!
Open

Follow TV Tropes

Following

Dragon Ball Z Abridged

Go To

Ghilz Perpetually Confused from Yeeted at Relativistic Velocities Since: Jan, 2001 Relationship Status: Barbecuing
Perpetually Confused
#34651: Jan 1st 2019 at 8:49:52 PM

Oh and Krillin is their friend on the force!

I'd watch the shit out of that.

unnoun Since: Jan, 2012
#34652: Jan 1st 2019 at 8:51:17 PM

I'm pretty sure Pan is already bulletproof.

Hell, I bet she was bulletproof in Battle of Gods.

If Videl was shot in the stomach instead of the leg, that bullet would have ricocheted.

In Super, Pan can fly to space.

In End of Z, at four, she apparently flies laps around the planet as a warm-up, and Goten gets annoyed because she makes him look bad and like a slacker.

Great Saiyababy would be terrifying.

randomness4 Ghost '11 from The Land of Inconvenience Since: Sep, 2011
Ghost '11
#34653: Jan 1st 2019 at 9:07:29 PM

Oh Snap.

Accurate Description of Gohand's character.

Amazing.

Rules of the Internet 45. Rule 45 is a lie. Check out my art if you notice.
HandsomeRob Leader of the Holey Brotherhood from The land of broken records Since: Jan, 2015
Leader of the Holey Brotherhood
#34654: Jan 1st 2019 at 9:43:04 PM

Pan as Goku's successor would be great, but I don't think Toriyama takes his female characters as seriously as fighters.

As already pointed out, across the original series run, there were only 4 (in order: Lan Fan, Chi-chi, Android 18, and Videl).

Of those 4, Lan Fan was played entirely for laughs, Chi-chi was a brick joke who wasn't in the same league as everyone else, 18 is the only one who's a serious fighter though she's not too devoted to it, and...well, we've gone over how Videl was treated in terms of fighting, being used to cause Gohan angst, when the one who assaulted her was even more irrelevant.

I just think he's not one to consider a girl as Goku's successor considering how limited their roles tend to deliberately be.

Which is a shame, because a properly done Pan as the new protector of Earth would be sweet. Banish the ghosts of GT forever.

One Strip! One Strip!
Ghilz Perpetually Confused from Yeeted at Relativistic Velocities Since: Jan, 2001 Relationship Status: Barbecuing
Perpetually Confused
#34655: Jan 1st 2019 at 11:37:14 PM

As already pointed out, across the original series run, there were only 4 (in order: Lan Fan, Chi-chi, Android 18, and Videl).

Do we count Arale? Sure. she's a cameo. And a robot. But should prolly count.

PushoverMediaCritic I'm sorry Tien, but I must go all out. from the Italy of America Since: Jul, 2015 Relationship Status: watch?v=dQw4w9WgXcQ
I'm sorry Tien, but I must go all out.
#34656: Jan 1st 2019 at 11:49:46 PM

Honestly, back in the original Dragon Ball, a goofy fighting style is not the same as being "played for laughs". Even Majin Buu, the pink bubble-gum monster who turns people into candy, was played for drama quite a lot.

The Ran Fan vs Nam fight was clearly not the most serious affair, but I can't actually think of many moments in it that were framed as jokes meant to elicit laughter. There's Jackie Chun gawking at her and Yamcha thinking he's definitely Roshi, there's Nam's sheepishness and awkwardness at her attractiveness, but I don't think her stripping was really meant to be played for laughs.

It was underhanded and shameless, sure, but the way the dialogue was written during the fight seemed like it was trying to portray Ran Fan as preying on Nam's naivete. Like, both fighters got moments of thinking to the readers, Ran Fan thinking about how Nam is a sucker, and Nam thinking about how he needs to get over himself and fight her for the prize money for his people.

Obviously, it was meant to titillate, and it's not progressive at all by any stretch of the imagination, that's not what I'm saying. I'm just saying that it's a bit incorrect to say that it was "entirely played for laughs". Not even Krillin vs Bacterian was "entirely" played for laughs, there were brief moments of drama even in that fight.

Edited by PushoverMediaCritic on Jan 1st 2019 at 12:51:01 PM

unnoun Since: Jan, 2012
#34657: Jan 2nd 2019 at 12:04:36 AM

I sorta don't quite get why Chi-Chi doesn't fight (and, honestly, probably or definitely die) against the Saiyans.

Or, hell, try to rescue Gohan from Piccolo and get beaten up that way.

She's not a pacifist. When she wanted Goku to fulfill his promise she fought to get her prize.

His dick. His dick was the prize.

The manga ran weekly from Piccolo to Raditz to Nappa, so. Not that long ago in the serialization.

She's honestly dumb, and a hick, and she is traditional, and all she wants out of life is to be a housewife and mother, but.

Her husband was dead. You can't be a wife to a corpse. Especially since Goku's corpse wasn't actually there and got taken to otherworld.

Her only son was just kidnapped by a demonic slug.

Chi-Chi couldn't take Piccolo, and she probably knows that, but she gets egged by Buu later, so I'm gonna say that her being bad at self-preservation is part of how dumb she is?

Maybe she'd get Yamcha'd by a Saibaman. Maybe, 30 years later, we'd think of it as the Chi-Chi death pose.

And there'd probably be discourse about violence against women.

But. Looking strictly at Chi-Chi's character.

Reading the bit where she hears Piccolo kidnapped Gohan after Goku died, and she never even tried to do anything about it, only a month after the 23rd Budokai is. It's weird. To me. In terms of her character.

Don't get me wrong, her fainting is funny. But she wakes up eventually, presumably.

...Honestly, also weird is God training Yajirobe instead of her, when at least she made it through the preliminaries of the Tournament God was at.

...It'd be way dark for Gohan to watch Chi-Chi die the same die Goku got back, and. Damn, part of me wants to watch the abridged series in the timeline where that happened.

Even if she lived, somehow, like.

I can buy her staying the fuck out of Namek.

I could see her going along to force Gohan to study, and trying to make him stay in the cave and failing.

It'd be one-note, maybe, though.

But the Saiyan Arc genuinely feels bizarre to me when I remember there was no gap in the manga.

Edited by unnoun on Jan 2nd 2019 at 3:16:58 PM

Saiga Since: Feb, 2011 Relationship Status: Getting away with murder
#34658: Jan 2nd 2019 at 12:13:59 AM

Chi-chi was just heavily outclassed compared to the others at the 23rd, she made it to the preliminaries because she didn't go up against God like Yajirobe did. Also, Yajirobe lives with Korin, and was used by God to gather up all the fighters for training.

unnoun Since: Jan, 2012
#34659: Jan 2nd 2019 at 12:21:52 AM

Didn't the scene of Chi-Chi fainting at Kame House and Yajirobe at Kame House occur basically simultaneously? Reading it it's a little hard to tell the blocking and who is in what position where when.

And, anyway, Chiaotzu honestly seemed pretty outmatched by everyone else at that Budokai too. By a fair amount, honestly.

It's not like being hopelessly outmatched stops Chi-Chi from trying either, in Buu.

Ghilz Perpetually Confused from Yeeted at Relativistic Velocities Since: Jan, 2001 Relationship Status: Barbecuing
Perpetually Confused
#34660: Jan 2nd 2019 at 12:28:31 AM

The weird thing is you'd think Chichi would want to be where the Saiyans are gonna be. She knows Piccolo's gonna bring her son there. She knows Goku's gonna be there. You'd think if anything else she'd want to be with them when they return.

It's not like she had anything else to do for a year. She could've gone and trained or something. Sure, outmatched, but it's not like she lacked motivation.

Of course the truth is Toriyama just isn't into having female fighters.

unnoun Since: Jan, 2012
#34661: Jan 2nd 2019 at 12:30:25 AM

She's also super dumb and a hick, and so's her dad!

Like, amazingly dumb. From her first panel onward.

She protests way too much about Goku, honestly.

Going to the middle of that shitshow is dumb enough to be in-character.

Edited by unnoun on Jan 2nd 2019 at 3:31:15 PM

Saiga Since: Feb, 2011 Relationship Status: Getting away with murder
#34662: Jan 2nd 2019 at 12:38:02 AM

[up][up][up] Yajirobe leaves before Chi-chi arrives.

And yeah, Chaozu was weak. We don't know who was stronger out of the two, but Chaozu actually had experience with life-or-death battles that Chi-Chi didn't. I would think that's the reason why God selected the fighters that he did.

Sure, Chi-chi could have trained as well, but I don't see a reason to assume she would when she hasn't been the same type of combatant as them previously.

Boo came to her, not the other way around. And that was just spite.

Narratively, I don't think Toriyama would want to introduce a new fighter to the main cast in an arc like the Saiyan arc when the role of the Earthlings was to get the shit kicked out of them. And after that they were phased out, so in hindsight it'd be for the best not to add someone new at that time.

Edited by Saiga on Jan 3rd 2019 at 6:40:56 AM

unnoun Since: Jan, 2012
#34663: Jan 2nd 2019 at 12:40:39 AM

Is Chi-Chi a new fighter though? At that point? A few weeks after the 23rd?

Sure, it wasn't much of a fight, but a lot of the others weren't either, honestly.

Saiga Since: Feb, 2011 Relationship Status: Getting away with murder
#34664: Jan 2nd 2019 at 12:41:55 AM

Given the minor role she served in that arc, and how she hadn't fought in any life-or-death battles, yeah, I'd say so.

I think there's a big distinction between being a tournament participant and joining the other battles.

unnoun Since: Jan, 2012
#34665: Jan 2nd 2019 at 12:45:31 AM

Yamcha didn't actually join in for Piccolo or Red Ribbon either though.

He wasnt actually there until after Red Ribbon tied up, and he tried to go charging in with Launch and Bulma against Piccolo but Goku fixed it before he got there.

Krillin died, offscreen, the instant before Tambourine appeared.

They were both involved at the fight at Baba's to resolve the Red Ribbon, but that feels pretty tournament-y.

They did nothing at the life or death fights.

For Piccolo, Chiaotzu dug a hole and then died.

Edited by unnoun on Jan 2nd 2019 at 3:46:33 PM

Saiga Since: Feb, 2011 Relationship Status: Getting away with murder
#34666: Jan 2nd 2019 at 12:53:47 AM

The Uranai Baba fights had very real (and deliberate) risks of death, especially in the Devil's Toilet.

Ghilz Perpetually Confused from Yeeted at Relativistic Velocities Since: Jan, 2001 Relationship Status: Barbecuing
Perpetually Confused
#34667: Jan 2nd 2019 at 12:57:21 AM

and how she hadn't fought in any life-or-death battles

Dunno, don't think that T-rex she decapitated was sparring. Looked pretty life or death to me.

Edited by Ghilz on Jan 2nd 2019 at 3:58:52 PM

Heatth (X-Troper) Relationship Status: In Spades with myself
#34668: Jan 2nd 2019 at 1:00:31 AM

There have never been any indications in the manga Chi-Chi is supposed to be anywhere near Chaozu's level of strength. Sure, she went farther in the tournament, but Chaozu fought a strong opponent in the preliminaries. Add that to the fact that she definitively did not train in the following 4 years and it is clear why she did not fight: she is not strong enough. We are used to take Chaozu as a joke, but he was supposed to be a powerful fighter on his own right. About equal to Kuririn in the 22th tournament, with psych powers and a powerful dondonpa. Chi-Chi is a random fighter on par with Nam or Pamputo.

Also, as mentioned before, Toriyama simply didn't take women seriously as fighters. If he wanted, it wouldn't be difficult to justify her inclusion in the Sayan arc. But he didn't, I suspect the idea didn't even cross his mind. By that point Chi-chi was a wife/mother and nothing else.

Ghilz Perpetually Confused from Yeeted at Relativistic Velocities Since: Jan, 2001 Relationship Status: Barbecuing
Perpetually Confused
#34669: Jan 2nd 2019 at 1:09:47 AM

It always goes back to the same crux: Toriyama is a shitty writer who writes by the seat of his pants and doesn't really think of what he writes, or how he might best use it. Chi-Chi was brought back in the 23rd tournament to be a shocking twist and give Goku something to fly off into the sunset with at the end of the tournament.

It's the same reason he'd introduce next chapter Goku's long lost brother, who'd immediately have 0 impact, and Goku's son, who'd, as Kaiser Neko explained earlier, also amount to ultimately nothing.

Like no, Toriyama wasn't gonna make Chichi a big part of Goku's life, or the ongoing story.

Like, 90% of Dragonball discussion right there end with "Coz Toriyama is a shitty writer who writes by the seat of his pants"

Saiga Since: Feb, 2011 Relationship Status: Getting away with murder
#34670: Jan 2nd 2019 at 1:14:07 AM

That's a pretty extreme overreaction. In the long run, not having Chi-chi fight in the Saiyan arc works better since the humans would be phased out.

Her getting married to Goku doesn't mean she has to be a major fighter.

Raditz didn't have 0 impact, he got Goku killed and really shook up the power hierarchy as we know it. Him being Goku's brother didn't necessitate him being important, cause that misunderstands Goku's character hard.

And I don't agree with Kaiser's assessment of Gohan, though it was pretty sloppy the way he reverted back to Goku at the end which was a last minute change.

Edited by Saiga on Jan 2nd 2019 at 7:14:57 PM

Ghilz Perpetually Confused from Yeeted at Relativistic Velocities Since: Jan, 2001 Relationship Status: Barbecuing
Perpetually Confused
#34671: Jan 2nd 2019 at 1:16:10 AM

"which was a last minute change" implies not everything in Dragonball is last minute and written by seat-of-pants method.

Him being Goku's brother didn't necessitate him being important, cause that misunderstands Goku's character hard.

Guess no one told Toriyama what Goku's character was then, coz he sure wrote him as such.

(See previous line about all boiling down to Toriyama being shit at writing).

Edited by Ghilz on Jan 2nd 2019 at 4:22:05 AM

slimcoder The Head of the Hydra Since: May, 2013
The Head of the Hydra
#34672: Jan 2nd 2019 at 1:31:56 AM

Hey it was a 90’s shonen, they all treated women terribly.

They still do even today usually.

And unlike most other writers (cough cough Naruto), Toriyama did the write by the seat of your pants pretty well.

Edited by slimcoder on Jan 2nd 2019 at 1:33:00 AM

"I am Alpharius. This is a lie."
Heatth (X-Troper) Relationship Status: In Spades with myself
#34673: Jan 2nd 2019 at 2:06:56 AM

@Ghiz, I wouldn't go as far as call him a shitty writer. His writing is a mess but it is nowhere near awful. When compared to many, many fighting shonens, he comes out quite well. It is not a complete fluke that he became as popular as he did.

I think there is some value in writing by the seat of the pants. It will rarely result in a mastercraft, but it can lead to fun stories with multiple interesting elements, which is what Dragon Ball is. It falters at times but, still, I enjoy it well enough.

Saiga Since: Feb, 2011 Relationship Status: Getting away with murder
#34674: Jan 2nd 2019 at 3:21:45 AM

"which was a last minute change" implies not everything in Dragonball is last minute and written by seat-of-pants method.

Which is correct.

Guess no one told Toriyama what Goku's character was then, coz he sure wrote him as such.

I have no idea what you're trying to say.

No, Goku's character was that he didn't place undue importance in blood relations. So there's no reason to assume Raditz being his brother is going to make him important.

VeryMelon Since: Jul, 2011 Relationship Status: Anime is my true love
#34675: Jan 2nd 2019 at 5:03:01 AM

It's less bad writing and more or less the cultural sexism Toriyama grew up with that also permeated his workplace. I remember reading about Hirohiko Araki wanting Lisa Lisa to fight and Defeat Base Form Kars before his editor forced him to downplay her instead, and another case where Narciso Anasui was meant to be a woman but turned into a guy because his editor though Stone Ocean had "enough" female main characters. I'm not saying Toriyama shouldn't be criticize at all, but the issue is a tad more complex than what's been suggested about him.

As for Gohan, I'm not surprised Scott or anyone else feels that way. More and more the character looks like a mistake Toriyama took too long to correct. While he could have easily worked as the new protagonist, Toriyama's own sensibilities weren't accommodating to Gohan's character.

Edited by VeryMelon on Jan 2nd 2019 at 8:06:57 AM


Total posts: 40,340
Top