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HandsomeRob Leader of the Holey Brotherhood from The land of broken records Since: Jan, 2015
Leader of the Holey Brotherhood
#34551: Dec 23rd 2018 at 9:46:51 PM

We could cut out the Spirit Bomb I suppose. Or combine them.

Like, remember when Goku went Kaioken X20 and did the Kamehameha and that failed.

Maybe have Freeza then attack the others to really mess with Goku and drive home how helpless he is, leading to Piccolo's wounding and Krillin's death and then boom! Super Saiyan!

So now Goku is pounding the pudding out of Freeza, but Freeza goes 100% and sort of takes back the edge, so Goku uses the training he's received to win, hitting Freeza with a Spirit Bomb (which would require ignoring that he can't be a Super Saiyan while gathering energy, but I'm ok with that, since I think it's stupid). Freeza is battered, but alive (but unable to keep fighting unlike Vegeta who still had some gas in the tank) and still unable to accept his loss, leading to both him cutting himself to ribbons, and then Goku just blasting him when he still acts like a sore loser just like in both the anime and the manga.

And that is my stupid idea.

One Strip! One Strip!
Saiga Since: Feb, 2011 Relationship Status: Getting away with murder
#34552: Dec 23rd 2018 at 9:53:03 PM

[up][up] that ignores the issue of timing things with other events going at the time, and I think cutting all the beats from the SS Goku fight would be a loss.

[up] to be honest that makes Super Saiyan seem kind of like a dud, if it's inferior to 💯 Freeza.

Edited by Saiga on Dec 24th 2018 at 3:54:14 AM

HandsomeRob Leader of the Holey Brotherhood from The land of broken records Since: Jan, 2015
Leader of the Holey Brotherhood
#34553: Dec 23rd 2018 at 9:59:13 PM

Yeah. I'm trying to think of a way to still keep the Spirit Bomb while not undermining Super Saiyan either.

I think that you can't get rid of the bomb failing, because if it hurts Freeza, then it looks like the only reason Goku won, even with Super Saiyan is because of the Spirit Bomb.

But we already had the Spirit Bomb fail before (and after being hyped up) so I want it to do something, but I guess it just doesn't work.

Poor poor ultimate attack. You got screwed, like so many super attacks before you.

One Strip! One Strip!
LSBK Since: Sep, 2014
#34554: Dec 23rd 2018 at 10:15:41 PM

Here's a stupid idea for how you could beat Frieza without Super Saiyan, combine the Kaioken with Goku absorbing the Spirit Bomb like he did in that Super 13 movie.

LordVatek Not really a lord of anything Since: Sep, 2014
Not really a lord of anything
#34555: Dec 23rd 2018 at 11:27:27 PM

[up][up]If you really want the Spirit Bomb to be useful against Frieza, then instead of the Final Kamehameha finishing Frieza off, make it a smaller Spirit Bomb that he charges up on the spot because Super Saiyan is just like that.

This song needs more love.
randomness4 Ghost '11 from The Land of Inconvenience Since: Sep, 2011
Ghost '11
#34556: Dec 23rd 2018 at 11:31:35 PM

[up][up]That kinda comes out of no where, as long as it's brought up before at least.

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TobiasDrake (•̀⤙•́) (Edited uphill both ways) Relationship Status: Arm chopping is not a love language!
(•̀⤙•́)
#34557: Dec 24th 2018 at 7:19:02 AM

Yes, there are parts of the Android arc that would need an overhaul if you removed the second half of the Goku v. Frieza fight. Any change to continuity is going to change the story.

I'm just talking about what I think would make the Goku v. Frieza fight less of a slog. It goes without saying that the stuff that comes after it would be different, because the stuff that comes after it wouldn't be following up on a story that has the second half of the Goku v. Frieza fight.

In my personal opinion, that wouldn't be such a bad thing because the Android arc is overrated anyway. I think the introduction of Super Saiyans was followed up by the immediate removal of any specialness or uniqueness they once had, which had a detrimental effect on the series.

The Android arc wound up being all about Super Saiyans. "Now that Super Saiyans can Super Saiyan, how do we Super Saiyan hard enough to Super Saiyan even the Super Saiyans?! Oh no! Cell's a thing! Let's Super Saiyan him with as much Super Saiyan as we can Super Saiyan!" And also Piccolo was nearby.

Every Saiyan suddenly became a Super Saiyan and that made Super Saiyan stop really being a thing. When every Saiyan is a Super Saiyan then Super Saiyan is just cool hair effect that Saiyans naturally trigger when they fight.

Edited by TobiasDrake on Dec 24th 2018 at 8:21:41 AM

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VeryMelon Since: Jul, 2011 Relationship Status: Anime is my true love
#34558: Dec 24th 2018 at 7:21:43 AM

Super Saiyan was never special. It was always a biological function that anyone could get once a proper training method could be discovered. That's why the Universe 6 saiyans were better at it than the Universe 7 ones.

sgamer82 Since: Jan, 2001
#34559: Dec 24th 2018 at 7:29:22 AM

Because they put effort into finding out why it worked where the U7 Saiyans just accepted that it did?

VeryMelon Since: Jul, 2011 Relationship Status: Anime is my true love
randomness4 Ghost '11 from The Land of Inconvenience Since: Sep, 2011
Ghost '11
#34561: Dec 24th 2018 at 7:50:39 AM

I wouldn't call that effort.

But some people like to think that SSJ is more special than it really is.

Like if it's so special, why can Veggie do it?

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Medigo03 Since: Sep, 2013
#34562: Dec 24th 2018 at 7:58:06 AM

I do remember one moment nicely enough from the supersaiyan fight.

Goku letting Frieza hit him in the face (to no effect) with the same beam attack that killed Vegeta and that even he had to deflect or dodge at all times before.

I always thought Frieza at 100 % power was not that much weaker than SSJ Goku. He could at least survive the onslaught. The power just burned out fast (in 5 minutes or less. Heh).

Overall I wouldnt want to see that segment gone. But it definitely needs a trim. It could be resolved in like 4 episodes.

Edited by Medigo03 on Dec 24th 2018 at 7:58:26 AM

HandsomeRob Leader of the Holey Brotherhood from The land of broken records Since: Jan, 2015
Leader of the Holey Brotherhood
#34563: Dec 24th 2018 at 8:22:32 AM

If you really want the Spirit Bomb to be useful against Frieza, then instead of the Final Kamehameha finishing Frieza off, make it a smaller Spirit Bomb that he charges up on the spot because Super Saiyan is just like that.

I mean, that would require altering how long it takes to gather the energy, but then again if the Spirit Bomb is rarely going to be use, and rarely be successful anyway, then I don’t see much point in it needing to take so much time.

The way Goku formed the bomb in The Saiyan Saga and the way he formed it in the Freeza Saga are different anyway (perhaps due to an improved mastery of it, so why not have him forming the energy faster?

Or like you said, replace the 20 times Kaioken Kamehameha with that; he forms it mostly under water, breaks out with Kaioken like he did in canon, then uses the last few seconds while Freeza is off guard to get the rest of the energy and throw it, maybe with assistance from Piccolo still.

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PushoverMediaCritic I'm sorry Tien, but I must go all out. from the Italy of America Since: Jul, 2015 Relationship Status: watch?v=dQw4w9WgXcQ
I'm sorry Tien, but I must go all out.
#34564: Dec 24th 2018 at 8:23:08 AM

The important events of the SS1 Goku vs Freeza fight:

  1. Freeza attacking Goku in 50% to no effect.

  2. Freeza rage-quitting and trying to destroy Namek.

  3. Freeza powering up to 100%.

  4. Freeza and Goku fight. North Kaio does his plan with Kami to revive and evacuate everyone.

  5. Freeza and Goku's Nova Strike/Kamehameha "beam struggle". Goku comes back.

  6. Freeza sees Porunga and Porunga gets everyone else off Namek.

  7. Freeza and Goku fight, Goku decides that he's bored and leaves.

  8. Freeza throws Pizzas. Goku dodges and Freeza is cut in half.

  9. Goku gives Freeza his energy. Freeza is a fool.

Yeah, all of that could easily fit in 3-4 episodes.

randomness4 Ghost '11 from The Land of Inconvenience Since: Sep, 2011
Ghost '11
#34565: Dec 24th 2018 at 8:28:24 AM

The 8th thing could be cut...considering it's the exact same thing as being a fool.

Just say after being exhausted Freezerator used the last of his energy to cheap shot Karrot...and get's blasted.

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TobiasDrake (•̀⤙•́) (Edited uphill both ways) Relationship Status: Arm chopping is not a love language!
(•̀⤙•́)
#34566: Dec 24th 2018 at 8:34:16 AM

Honestly, even the blast could be cut. If this was supposed to be the end of Frieza's story, then "You Fool!" would work as a final note to close out on.

But. Frieza's supposed to survive these events and come back for revenge. So having something that feels so final doesn't really gel with him popping up next year like, "Hey, f*ckers, it's time for round two!" It's like if Goku never stopped Krillin from stabbing Vegeta and he died right then and there, laying on the door of his escape pod. But then still showed up to Namek and everything continued as normal.

That's one of those scenes where Toriyama's lack of planning really shows. He clearly never intended for Frieza to survive Namek. But then he decided that Frieza would survive Namek so he could show off Trunks. Which makes the original final end scene for Frieza really awkward in retrospect.

Edited by TobiasDrake on Dec 24th 2018 at 9:35:58 AM

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unknowing from somewhere.. Since: Mar, 2014
#34567: Dec 24th 2018 at 11:24:02 AM

[up]To be fair he only survie thanks to is father who IS really the awkard part of the whole thing seen how easly he dies by trunks.

And I think Freezer have to survie the spirit bomb because the scene with him Killing Krillin is one of the best in DB.

Also I like how the movie make freezer said "what, do you want me to kill you again!?" I luaght allow.

"My Name is Bolt, Bolt Crank and I dont care if you believe or not"
Kamiccolo Since: May, 2018
#34568: Dec 24th 2018 at 11:39:54 AM

That's one of those scenes where Toriyama's lack of planning really shows. He clearly never intended for Frieza to survive Namek.
Basically impossible given the production timeline. In the original serialization he barely even expected the audience to believe Freeza was dead for a week; the "YOU FOOL!" blast happens at the very end of chapter 327, chapter 328 wraps up the loose ends of the plot (and gives us Goku's death fake out), and chapter 329 confirms that both Goku and Freeza survived. He had probably already written and storyboarded chapter 329 by the time chapter 327 hit shelves. And this isn't even considering how far ahead of time he must have done the designs for cyborg Freeza, King Cold, and their minions.

Edited by Kamiccolo on Dec 24th 2018 at 11:41:14 AM

Grahf Since: Jan, 2001
#34569: Dec 24th 2018 at 12:09:42 PM

To absolutely no one's surprise I'm guessing:

PushoverMediaCritic I'm sorry Tien, but I must go all out. from the Italy of America Since: Jul, 2015 Relationship Status: watch?v=dQw4w9WgXcQ
I'm sorry Tien, but I must go all out.
#34570: Dec 24th 2018 at 12:15:45 PM

It was literally the only big fight they didn't give an Honorable Mention. No-one was surprised. Good breakdown, though.

Kayeka (4 Score & 7 Years Ago)
#34571: Dec 24th 2018 at 12:16:38 PM

Called this as soon as they announced this. I mean, for goodness sake, they wrote their rules exactly so this would qualify.

Edited by Kayeka on Dec 24th 2018 at 9:19:15 PM

PushoverMediaCritic I'm sorry Tien, but I must go all out. from the Italy of America Since: Jul, 2015 Relationship Status: watch?v=dQw4w9WgXcQ
I'm sorry Tien, but I must go all out.
#34572: Dec 24th 2018 at 12:20:16 PM

  • transformations count as the same fight

  • group fights where at least one side stays the same count as the same fight

Yeah, they really did.

KarkatTheDalek Not as angry as the name would suggest. from Somwhere in Time/Space Since: Mar, 2012 Relationship Status: You're a beautiful woman, probably
Not as angry as the name would suggest.
#34573: Dec 24th 2018 at 12:33:30 PM

I’d wonder if that was cheating, but this doesn’t really sound like a bunch of separate fights, so I guess it’s fine.

Oh God! Natural light!
Kayeka (4 Score & 7 Years Ago)
#34574: Dec 24th 2018 at 12:40:07 PM

Oh, it's totally fine. It's a great choice, too.

Saiga Since: Feb, 2011 Relationship Status: Getting away with murder
#34575: Dec 24th 2018 at 1:01:51 PM

Cutting out the final blast is silly. That's a few pages, you don't improve the pacing at all by doing so, and the fight doesn't have a climactic finish (plus you lose Goku's sorrowful look which was great and quite rare for Goku).

The fact that Freeza survives doesn't mean the fight needs to lack a definite ending. The blast establishes that Freeza is utterly irredeemable, because he spits in Goku's face even in his most vulnerable moment.

Cutting these moments for the sake of half a chapter doesn't seem to gain anything.


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