Please do not misunderstand my point. I am not talking about the length of time at all. That coulsd be 3 minutes or 3 hours, it's irrelevant to the pacing I am talking about.
If Goku beats Freeza quickly, he can be wished back to Earth with everyone. He needs to be tied up during that whole sequence, and that sequence took multiple chapters to depict as well. You could trim his fight, but that would either leave him fighting off-screen for a disproportionate period, or make it unclear what Goku was doing during all this other stuff. That just doesn't sound as satisfying as the combination of Goku carthatically beating down Freeza + the additional character moments throughout the fight.
I don't think the sequence drags as it is, and it helps break up the non-action parts of the arc's conclusion (as well as place pauses between the problems the characters run into and the solutions proposed).
If we're just talking about the fight itself, I don't think it's weak. Going purely off memory, I like all of the moments making it up - Goku smiling through Freeza's blows, Freeza ramming him with a forcefield, Goku's methodical beatdown and double feint with the Kienzan, and his pained expression before he finally leaves. By itself I'd call SS Goku v 💯 Freeza a good fight.
Edited by Saiga on Dec 24th 2018 at 1:28:38 AM
It's always a curb stomp. All that changes is whose foot is doing the stomping.
Even before Goku arrives, it's Freeza doing it, then he deliberately eases up on the pressure to get a feel for Goku before putting some weight into it again.
Then after Goku briefly throws him off balances, he pushes too much and the whole thing flips on him, with Goku doing the stomping. Only Goku doesn't see any purpose in following through or toying around. He knows if he just put all his weight into it, he'd crush Freeza like a bug, and he sees zero reason to do that.
Hmm. That's an interesting part to this fight. When Freeza demonstrates his superiority, he shows his cruelty by dragging the fight out and torturing Goku. When Goku then shows his superiority, he shows his cruelty by doing the exact opposite.
One Strip! One Strip!I maintain that the best part of the fight is the whole fight between Goku and Frieza leading up to and including the Genki-Dama - which was, itself, a perfectly serviceable conclusion to the desperate battle that led up to it.
Hot take: Goku's first Super Saiyan transformation can go f*ck itself. It contributes nothing of value and serves only to drag the fight on into a completely unnecessary and far less interesting second half.
My Tumblr. Currently side-by-side liveblogging Digimon Adventure, sub vs dub.But Goku didn't even use the Spirit Bomb in the Vegeta fight.
And note that the battle kept going even after that, just like with Freeza.
And he used a much bigger bomb in the case of Freeza too.
Come to think about it, by having the ball fail and the fight continue just like with Vegeta, the man who supposedly likes subverting expectations is once again just repeating something he did previously, which he tends to do quite a lot.
Edited by HandsomeRob on Dec 23rd 2018 at 9:16:28 AM
One Strip! One Strip!The latter half is barely even a fight, though. The first half is peppered with cool moments. Goku trapped underwater and using decoys to opportunize off of Frieza's inability to sense ki. Frieza's shnazzy ping pong ball attack. Frieza's declaration to not use his arms and Goku's challenge to make him. The Kaioken x20 Kamehameha, and the startling revelation that even the Kaioken isn't going to cut it. The tension as Goku tries to charge up the Genki-Dama, at the same time that Frieza decides that he's had enough of this - and the subsequent bid for time from Piccolo.
There's a lot that happens when Goku fights Frieza.
The second half of the fight is as long as the first, and there's really nothing memorable in it. Between Goku's transformation and Frieza slicing himself in half with the Kienzan, can you think of a single cool attack or memorable combat sequence?
My Tumblr. Currently side-by-side liveblogging Digimon Adventure, sub vs dub.I guess this stems from Toriyama reaching the point where he made his characters so strong that almost all fights are a curb stomp in some way.
Though I do admit, that Goku completely eclipsing Freeza works narratively. After seeing him toy with everyone for so long and sadistically torture our heroes, watching him get crushed to a pulp feels good.
One Strip! One Strip!![]()
I listed the cool sequences before. The way SS Goku feint kicks Freeza is also cool
I think they're about even. The thing is, Goku pushing his Kaio-ken past his limits in a huge Kamehameha and seeing that isn't enough is something we saw in the Vegeta fight. Ditto for the Spirit Bomb.
Edited by Saiga on Dec 24th 2018 at 2:24:39 AM
No, we saw the inverse. Goku's x4 Kamehameha defeated Vegeta's Galick Gun and forced him into a desperation move, whereas Frieza tanked the x20 Kamehameha like it was nothing and went right back to business.
Conversely, Vegeta took a Genki-Dama to the face and got right back up to keep going. If you wanted to differentiate the fights, having the Genki-Dama actually succeed would do the trick better than Frieza doing literally the same thing Vegeta did: tank its power and come back for more.
Edited by TobiasDrake on Dec 23rd 2018 at 9:28:11 AM
My Tumblr. Currently side-by-side liveblogging Digimon Adventure, sub vs dub.Goku overpowered the Galick Gun, but it fails to beat Vegeta and Goku realizes he won't be able to prevail.
And while having Freeza lose to the Spirit Bomb would be different, it would mean the two biggest moments are the Kaio-ken KHH and the Spirit Bomb. That wouldn't be very impressive when the Vegeta fights had their own version of that.
But Super Saiyan? That's completely new. And it completely changes the dynamic to one we didn't get in the Vegeta fight, where Goku truly has the upper hand.
There's a reason we didn't get that, though. The same reason why the Cell fight doesn't end right after Gohan hits SSJ2 and starts dominating the fight.
Because the tension of the fight comes in the question of how the hero is going to overcome the insurmountable villain. The fight with Vegeta ends at the point where Vegeta is no longer capable of being a threat. The fight with Cell continues past that point, but then finds a way to circle back around and make Cell a threat again.
Frieza never circles around, and the result is a long, obnoxious slog of a fight that drags on well beyond its expiration date. The first half is a fight as climactic fights should be: the hero pulling out all the stops to find some way to win against the unwinnable.
But the second half is just Goku being able to win the fight at any point and he just doesn't. Over and over again, he doesn't. Chapters/episodes pass and he doesn't. There is no longer any reason for the fight to continue and yet it does because Goku just refuses to win it. Until it finally, mercifully concludes.
Frieza's Five Minutes became a meme for long, boring drag-on fights for a reason.
The Frieza fight stopped having any tension right after the Genki-Dama. This is for reasons unrelated to the Genki-Dama, but in such close proximity that you could end the fight at the Genki-Dama and nothing of value would be lost.
Edited by TobiasDrake on Dec 23rd 2018 at 9:44:38 AM
My Tumblr. Currently side-by-side liveblogging Digimon Adventure, sub vs dub.
So funny thing: even though I agree with you, this is only in hindsight. Years later, we are all aware that Goku won that fight the moment he went Super Saiyan, and that everything that happens next is a formality he allows to happen for reasons.
At the time though, did any of us know Goku could have ended that battle at any time? I think, when he took the (what looked to us as a huge) risk of allowing Freeza to go 100% there would have been some tension over whether he could still take the win.
One Strip! One Strip!Agreed. I think Freeza's complete inability to win (in a straight fight, Goku definitely would have died if he didn't win soon enough) is an upside, not a flaw.
And that reason is the anime, because the meme originated with that audience. That's not to say you can't levy that criticism against the manga, but it's inaccurate to imply the manga was connected to that.
This also isn't accurate. Yes, he allows Freeza to power up, but he has a reason for that. After that, he can't just win 'at any time'. The fact that he's superior doesn't mean he can instantly crush any resistance out of Freeza and we do see him putting effort in.
Edited by Saiga on Dec 24th 2018 at 3:03:13 AM
Removing Goku going Super Saiyan against Frieza requires reworking a few beats in the Cell Saga: Trunks' role as the mysterious Saiyan from the future works better since he can quickly prove he's a Saiyan by going super, and Goku and Trunks going Super Saiyan triggers Vegeta's inferiority complex that motivates him throughout the Cell Saga.
Both of those beats can be worked around, but there is work to be done if you remove Goku going Super Saiyan from the climax of the Frieza battle.
There would be pretty huge changes, given that the Super Saiyan legend was tied to Freeza and mentioned by Guru so either the Namek arc climax doesn't have the pay off or you need to completely replace the foreshadowing.
Then you've got to deal with Trunks, and his backstory. And you need to find a suitable emotional moment for Goku to turn Super Saiyan. And all of this has got to happen before Gohan surpasses Gohan - it would majorly rework the Cell arc and it probably can't end up in the same place.
Introducing the Super Saiyan concept without the legend would be very, very hard. Introducing the Super Saiyan legend without the characters linked to the Saiyan's past would be even harder.
This just doesn't sound very workable.
Edited by Saiga on Dec 24th 2018 at 3:41:45 AM

That is a very weak point and I would expect better than that from you. The length of time in manga is completely arbitrary, it would come doesn't to the hair no matter what. The planet could have taken 3 minutes to explode, not 5. Or maybe a shorter on-page fight would have still lasted 5 minutes, because we can't accurately judge this kind of thing regardless.
Anyway, it doesn't really matter. I do think some stuff could have been trimmed, like the kienzan-like attack, the powerup or even Goku giving Freeza his ki. But, in a way I do agree with you: the fight need to go on for enough time to justify Goku staying behind and give time for Kaioh's plan (though even this can be trimmed down, I think). But, still, that doesn't mean this part makes for a satisfactory fight. It makes for a good story momment (Kaioh's plan is great) but the fight itself is still weak. It is unfortunately that Toriyama plotted the story in a way that weaken the climatic fight but that is what happened. And, personally, I don't even mind. I actually like that part of the story quite a bit. I think it could be improved but I think that about most of Dragon Ball (I don't think it is terribly well written overall). My point is only that this part of the fight is weak.
Incidentally, this whole argument started because you called this portion an "extended conclusion", to which I argued that it drags the fight down as a whole. But I actually don't tend to think of it as such. I prefer to think this part as a different fight altogether, because the previous fight already have a well defined start and end. I am much happier to think of this fight as background noise for the actual story with a couple of really good moments at the start and end.
Edited by Heatth on Dec 23rd 2018 at 12:16:31 PM