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TobiasDrake (•̀⤙•́) (Edited uphill both ways) Relationship Status: Arm chopping is not a love language!
(•̀⤙•́)
#34426: Dec 22nd 2018 at 5:04:09 PM

Vegeta never even hugged Trunks until he had decided to kill himself. Goku hugs Gohan all the time and the first thing he and Goten did together was hug.

This isn't a direct response to PMC, I'm just picking on his post because it's part of the general conversation that I wanted to address:

Something I've noticed in "Goku's fathering ability" conversations is that Vegeta's parenting inevitably winds up dragged into it from one side or the other. This is interesting to me because of the implication that Vegeta's parenting is in any way related to whether or not Goku is a good husband and father.

The conversation sometimes feels like there is supposed to be exactly 1 Good Father, made up of Good Father Points distributed between Goku and Vegeta. And people are arguing the distribution of those points. See, if Vegeta is a bad father, then Goku has all the Good Father Points and becomes the good father by default. But if you argue that Goku is a bad father, then you must be arguing that Vegeta has all the Good Father Points, and that just can't be right, can it?

But. Like.

They can both be shit dads.

Or they can both be great dads.

It's not a seesaw. The one has nothing to do with the other.

My Tumblr. Currently side-by-side liveblogging Digimon Adventure, sub vs dub.
LSBK Since: Sep, 2014
#34427: Dec 22nd 2018 at 5:06:08 PM

[up]I agree with this, with the caveat that I usually see it the other way around, i.e. Vegeta is a good father because he's a better one than Goku (debatable, but not the actual point here).

slimcoder The Head of the Hydra Since: May, 2013
The Head of the Hydra
#34428: Dec 22nd 2018 at 5:07:18 PM

Goku’s not really that bad a of a dad.

He’s a bad husband sure but he’s a decent dad.

Vegeta though for the longest time really was both a terrible lover & father because he’s Vegeta who for the longest time really was a terrible person.

Edited by slimcoder on Dec 22nd 2018 at 5:07:45 AM

"I am Alpharius. This is a lie."
unnoun Since: Jan, 2012
#34429: Dec 22nd 2018 at 5:09:35 PM

More like Toriyama didn't tell Toei what Jiren's personality and backstory actually were until pre-production had already started.

Is it just me, or does that still seem like a massive dick move?

[up] I'm 90% sure Vegeta was an amazing lover for those 7 years.

Or. Fucker, anyway.

Motherfucker.

For Bulma to put up with that shit, he had to have been fantastic in the sack.

"Sure, he won't give our son a hug, but he plowed me through the floor last night"

"bulma i just called to see if you fixed my saiyaman watch yet what the shit"

Edited by unnoun on Dec 22nd 2018 at 8:14:17 AM

Kamiccolo Since: May, 2018
#34430: Dec 22nd 2018 at 5:11:33 PM

Nah, it's totally a dick move. The guy is getting paid (probably) millions to have shows, comics, games, and movies made from his Wikipedia plot synopses and napkin notes and he still can't be arsed to actually finish the napkin notes before he sends them out. Though to be absolutely fair the exact details of when, how, and in what detail the outline is created is still a bit oblique, and we don't know everything going on behind the scenes at Toei and Shueisha.

Edited by Kamiccolo on Dec 22nd 2018 at 5:12:52 AM

slimcoder The Head of the Hydra Since: May, 2013
The Head of the Hydra
#34431: Dec 22nd 2018 at 5:13:51 PM

[up][up] Okay wrong word.

Let’s say bad romantic partner.

Cause yeah there’s gotta be a good reason why Bulma bothered keeping his useless ass around all these years.

Edited by slimcoder on Dec 22nd 2018 at 5:14:09 AM

"I am Alpharius. This is a lie."
Heatth (X-Troper) Relationship Status: In Spades with myself
#34432: Dec 22nd 2018 at 5:21:02 PM

Is it just me, or does that still seem like a massive dick move?

I am not sure if it is a dick move as much as Toriyama being genuinely a bad team player. From what people have been talking in this thread, I get the sense Toriyama simply doesn't know how to write with other people. For starter, he was never a planner kind of guy, I got the sense that even when he had an idea where he was going, he still improvised on a chapter by chapter basis. That method kinda works when you are working (mostly) alone, but it is terrible when there are other people counting on you for their own writing. So, like, maybe Toriyama didn't have a well detailed backstory or personality for Jiren by that point, just rough guidelines.

unnoun Since: Jan, 2012
#34433: Dec 22nd 2018 at 5:23:59 PM

In that sense. If the manga does reflect Toriyama's vision better, couldn't it just be because it takes longer, and Toyotaro needs more help?

thok That's Dr. Title, thank you! (4 Score & 7 Years Ago) Relationship Status: Non-Canon
That's Dr. Title, thank you!
#34434: Dec 22nd 2018 at 5:30:02 PM

Goku's clearly not the best dad in the DB franchise (Gohan, Krillen, and Mr. Satan are clearly better parents than him.) That the DB father debate is specifically about Vegeta/Goku says something about how parts of our culture values masculinity.

Goku is a decent father given how much of a deadbeat dad he is. (Before you bring up Cell/Gohan, I'd argue that goes with my point; Goku wouldn't have behaved the way he did if he spent more time with Gohan and understood his motivation.)

Vegeta is a better father after blowing himself to destroy Buu than he was before, but still suffers from a bad case of toxic masculinity which is explained but not justified from his background. People overestimate the value of his grand moments, when a lot of the value of fatherhood is in the day to day behavior.

Kamiccolo Since: May, 2018
#34435: Dec 22nd 2018 at 5:30:18 PM

[up][up]It taking longer could be part of it, but we also know that a lot of stuff in the original outline makes it into the manga but not the anime, so it's not purely because of that. I think Toyotaro is just more deferential towards Toriyama and therefore follows his vision closer (we've had Toriyama himself say that he feels Toyotaro should contribute more ideas, like SSG Vegeta and Vegetto showing up in the Zamasu arc, things that got added to the anime). For example in the battle with Zamasu, one of the events of Toriyama's original outline that we have the most details on, the outline and manga differ from the anime in the following ways:

  • In the anime Fused Zamasu is not immortal.
  • In the anime Goku vs Fused Zamasu isn't the climactic showdown at the end of the arc.
  • In the anime two SSB-tiers would be unable to handle a non-immortal Fused Zamasu.
  • In the anime Goku Black doesn't have a regular SS form.
  • In the anime the Potara time limit doesn't apply to Fused Zamasu.

Another big thing: the manga is shorter. So Toyotaro essentially just adapts the outline with a few added points and that's it. Toei, meanwhile, has to make a weekly TV series, and so have to add a bunch of subplots and filler arcs to balance things out, and then try to make those subplots and filler arcs work with the main stuff, necessitating even more divergence. IIRC, I once calculated that over half of the episodes were pure Toei-original content that weren't adapting anything by Toriyama.

Edited by Kamiccolo on Dec 22nd 2018 at 5:37:57 AM

Ikedatakeshi Baby dango from singapore Since: Nov, 2015 Relationship Status: Singularity
Baby dango
#34436: Dec 22nd 2018 at 5:30:58 PM

Refusing to save someone on your team and calling them worthless is absolutely worse than saying you expected better of someone. Absolutely worse. Jiren consciously and calmly refusing to save Toppo and Dyspo, even when they were yelling for help, is the worst thing Jiren did in any medium, thanks for reminding me how fucking awful that was.

No, he never calls them worthless. He says he'll finish the battle alone and tells them to observe from the sidelines. Which can just as easily be interpreted as him just following the idea that U11 will win as long as he's still in.Toppo was in no state to battle and Dyspo was the one suggesting that Jiren felt that they would get in his way.

Anime Jiren mocks Toppo, a guy willing to sacrifice his ideals to ensure the survival of his universe pathetic for doing so and not producing any results after he gets his shit beaten out of.

unnoun Since: Jan, 2012
#34437: Dec 22nd 2018 at 5:35:43 PM

People overestimate the value of his grand moments, when a lot of the value of fatherhood is in the day to day behavior.

See, that's sorta exactly what I mean.

I can imagine Goku doing push-ups in weighted clothes over baby Gohan and making funny faces to make him giggle.

...Yes that's something I do with my baby.

Goku is, in general, willing to have fun and play, and that's, maybe not responsible', maybe not all 'parenting is, and there has to be more, but like.

A lot of characters in this series are seemingly incapable smiling? And so, on that level, like.

PushoverMediaCritic I'm sorry Tien, but I must go all out. from the Italy of America Since: Jul, 2015 Relationship Status: watch?v=dQw4w9WgXcQ
I'm sorry Tien, but I must go all out.
#34438: Dec 22nd 2018 at 5:36:49 PM

It's possible that Toyotaro works off of a different outline than Toei does. Like, the manga comes after the anime (like, WAY after), so the anime writers get the rough outline, and they collaborate with Toriyama and Toyotaro to make some changes to it (we know this is how Kale happened). Then, the anime starts on that arc, but Toriyama and Toyotaro are still working on the outline, and sometimes the changes they make get put in the anime later, but sometimes they're changes that only apply to the manga.

unnoun Since: Jan, 2012
#34439: Dec 22nd 2018 at 5:37:56 PM

[up] That's sorta what I mean.

Just having more time gives Toyotaro a lot.

Toei's production schedule would kill him.

and good riddance

Edited by unnoun on Dec 22nd 2018 at 8:38:37 AM

randomness4 Ghost '11 from The Land of Inconvenience Since: Sep, 2011
Ghost '11
#34440: Dec 22nd 2018 at 5:37:59 PM

Kriller, Yamucha, Gohand, and Kakarotto are the only adult characters capable of smiling in this series.

Rules of the Internet 45. Rule 45 is a lie. Check out my art if you notice.
HandsomeRob Leader of the Holey Brotherhood from The land of broken records Since: Jan, 2015
Leader of the Holey Brotherhood
#34441: Dec 22nd 2018 at 5:39:25 PM

[up][up][up]And it's possible that Toyotarou might even take inspiration from the anime in some cases.

Like, he might change things based on how Toei handled it (deliberately too, since he has his own style) or add in things that they did (like Goku pulling off a similar stunt to Kaioken during his fight with Jiren in the manga version).

Edit: Murasaki'ed again dammit!

Edited by HandsomeRob on Dec 22nd 2018 at 6:40:01 AM

One Strip! One Strip!
unnoun Since: Jan, 2012
#34442: Dec 22nd 2018 at 5:40:15 PM

Y'know, before Super, I'd have put Piccolo on the "never smiles" list, but goddamn is Piccolo with Pan amazing.

Only in the anime.

PushoverMediaCritic I'm sorry Tien, but I must go all out. from the Italy of America Since: Jul, 2015 Relationship Status: watch?v=dQw4w9WgXcQ
I'm sorry Tien, but I must go all out.
#34443: Dec 22nd 2018 at 5:40:56 PM

Toyotaro is also not the best as a mangaka. His schedule is only one chapter a month, while other mangaka put out one chapter a week or every two weeks. His chapters usually have quite a few pages, but that doesn't make up for his loose release schedule.

He's no Yusuke Murata. Hell, he's not even an Echiiro Oda or Akira Toriyama.

randomness4 Ghost '11 from The Land of Inconvenience Since: Sep, 2011
Ghost '11
#34444: Dec 22nd 2018 at 5:42:29 PM

I wasn't aware Piccoro even had a mouth...considering...

Rules of the Internet 45. Rule 45 is a lie. Check out my art if you notice.
Saiga Since: Feb, 2011 Relationship Status: Getting away with murder
#34445: Dec 22nd 2018 at 5:46:15 PM

[up][up] monthly manga is quite normal, just not the schedule used by Dhonen Jump. Further, his page count is in line with monthly manga, making that comparison silly.

Heatth (X-Troper) Relationship Status: In Spades with myself
#34446: Dec 22nd 2018 at 5:47:42 PM

I can imagine Goku doing push-ups in weighted clothes over baby Gohan and making funny faces to make him giggle.

That is nice but that is essentially fanfiction. Goku never did anything of sorts in the story.

[up][up][up]One 40 pages chapter per month is not "loose". That is, frankly, quite standard.

slimcoder The Head of the Hydra Since: May, 2013
The Head of the Hydra
#34447: Dec 22nd 2018 at 5:48:12 PM

Monthly manga can be quite grueling too.

The author of Attack on Titan is at a near breakdown right now.

"I am Alpharius. This is a lie."
PushoverMediaCritic I'm sorry Tien, but I must go all out. from the Italy of America Since: Jul, 2015 Relationship Status: watch?v=dQw4w9WgXcQ
I'm sorry Tien, but I must go all out.
#34448: Dec 22nd 2018 at 5:49:12 PM

The author of Attack on Titan deserves a breakdown, guy's a goddamn Nazi.

slimcoder The Head of the Hydra Since: May, 2013
The Head of the Hydra
#34449: Dec 22nd 2018 at 5:50:30 PM

He’s not.

"I am Alpharius. This is a lie."
Kamiccolo Since: May, 2018
#34450: Dec 22nd 2018 at 5:53:32 PM

It's 45 pages a month plus extra pages that he has to do for the volumes (like the 5-page mini-chapter about 17 and the Cell Juniors), so it's not that far removed from Toriyama's 14-15-page a week old schedule.


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