Goku’s not really that bad a of a dad.
He’s a bad husband sure but he’s a decent dad.
Vegeta though for the longest time really was both a terrible lover & father because he’s Vegeta who for the longest time really was a terrible person.
Edited by slimcoder on Dec 22nd 2018 at 5:07:45 AM
"I am Alpharius. This is a lie."Is it just me, or does that still seem like a massive dick move?
I'm 90% sure Vegeta was an amazing lover for those 7 years.
Or. Fucker, anyway.
Motherfucker.
For Bulma to put up with that shit, he had to have been fantastic in the sack.
"Sure, he won't give our son a hug, but he plowed me through the floor last night"
"bulma i just called to see if you fixed my saiyaman watch yet what the shit"
Edited by unnoun on Dec 22nd 2018 at 8:14:17 AM
Nah, it's totally a dick move. The guy is getting paid (probably) millions to have shows, comics, games, and movies made from his Wikipedia plot synopses and napkin notes and he still can't be arsed to actually finish the napkin notes before he sends them out. Though to be absolutely fair the exact details of when, how, and in what detail the outline is created is still a bit oblique, and we don't know everything going on behind the scenes at Toei and Shueisha.
Edited by Kamiccolo on Dec 22nd 2018 at 5:12:52 AM
I am not sure if it is a dick move as much as Toriyama being genuinely a bad team player. From what people have been talking in this thread, I get the sense Toriyama simply doesn't know how to write with other people. For starter, he was never a planner kind of guy, I got the sense that even when he had an idea where he was going, he still improvised on a chapter by chapter basis. That method kinda works when you are working (mostly) alone, but it is terrible when there are other people counting on you for their own writing. So, like, maybe Toriyama didn't have a well detailed backstory or personality for Jiren by that point, just rough guidelines.
Goku's clearly not the best dad in the DB franchise (Gohan, Krillen, and Mr. Satan are clearly better parents than him.) That the DB father debate is specifically about Vegeta/Goku says something about how parts of our culture values masculinity.
Goku is a decent father given how much of a deadbeat dad he is. (Before you bring up Cell/Gohan, I'd argue that goes with my point; Goku wouldn't have behaved the way he did if he spent more time with Gohan and understood his motivation.)
Vegeta is a better father after blowing himself to destroy Buu than he was before, but still suffers from a bad case of toxic masculinity which is explained but not justified from his background. People overestimate the value of his grand moments, when a lot of the value of fatherhood is in the day to day behavior.
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It taking longer could be part of it, but we also know that a lot of stuff in the original outline makes it into the manga but not the anime, so it's not purely because of that. I think Toyotaro is just more deferential towards Toriyama and therefore follows his vision closer (we've had Toriyama himself say that he feels Toyotaro should contribute more ideas, like SSG Vegeta and Vegetto showing up in the Zamasu arc, things that got added to the anime). For example in the battle with Zamasu, one of the events of Toriyama's original outline that we have the most details on, the outline and manga differ from the anime in the following ways:
- In the anime Fused Zamasu is not immortal.
- In the anime Goku vs Fused Zamasu isn't the climactic showdown at the end of the arc.
- In the anime two SSB-tiers would be unable to handle a non-immortal Fused Zamasu.
- In the anime Goku Black doesn't have a regular SS form.
- In the anime the Potara time limit doesn't apply to Fused Zamasu.
Another big thing: the manga is shorter. So Toyotaro essentially just adapts the outline with a few added points and that's it. Toei, meanwhile, has to make a weekly TV series, and so have to add a bunch of subplots and filler arcs to balance things out, and then try to make those subplots and filler arcs work with the main stuff, necessitating even more divergence. IIRC, I once calculated that over half of the episodes were pure Toei-original content that weren't adapting anything by Toriyama.
Edited by Kamiccolo on Dec 22nd 2018 at 5:37:57 AM
No, he never calls them worthless. He says he'll finish the battle alone and tells them to observe from the sidelines. Which can just as easily be interpreted as him just following the idea that U11 will win as long as he's still in.Toppo was in no state to battle and Dyspo was the one suggesting that Jiren felt that they would get in his way.
Anime Jiren mocks Toppo, a guy willing to sacrifice his ideals to ensure the survival of his universe pathetic for doing so and not producing any results after he gets his shit beaten out of.
See, that's sorta exactly what I mean.
I can imagine Goku doing push-ups in weighted clothes over baby Gohan and making funny faces to make him giggle.
...Yes that's something I do with my baby.
Goku is, in general, willing to have fun and play, and that's, maybe not responsible', maybe not all 'parenting is, and there has to be more, but like.
A lot of characters in this series are seemingly incapable smiling? And so, on that level, like.
It's possible that Toyotaro works off of a different outline than Toei does. Like, the manga comes after the anime (like, WAY after), so the anime writers get the rough outline, and they collaborate with Toriyama and Toyotaro to make some changes to it (we know this is how Kale happened). Then, the anime starts on that arc, but Toriyama and Toyotaro are still working on the outline, and sometimes the changes they make get put in the anime later, but sometimes they're changes that only apply to the manga.
Kriller, Yamucha, Gohand, and Kakarotto are the only adult characters capable of smiling in this series.
Rules of the Internet 45. Rule 45 is a lie. Check out my art if you notice.![]()
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And it's possible that Toyotarou might even take inspiration from the anime in some cases.
Like, he might change things based on how Toei handled it (deliberately too, since he has his own style) or add in things that they did (like Goku pulling off a similar stunt to Kaioken during his fight with Jiren in the manga version).
Edit: Murasaki'ed again dammit!
Edited by HandsomeRob on Dec 22nd 2018 at 6:40:01 AM
One Strip! One Strip!Toyotaro is also not the best as a mangaka. His schedule is only one chapter a month, while other mangaka put out one chapter a week or every two weeks. His chapters usually have quite a few pages, but that doesn't make up for his loose release schedule.
He's no Yusuke Murata. Hell, he's not even an Echiiro Oda or Akira Toriyama.
I wasn't aware Piccoro even had a mouth...considering...
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This isn't a direct response to PMC, I'm just picking on his post because it's part of the general conversation that I wanted to address:
Something I've noticed in "Goku's fathering ability" conversations is that Vegeta's parenting inevitably winds up dragged into it from one side or the other. This is interesting to me because of the implication that Vegeta's parenting is in any way related to whether or not Goku is a good husband and father.
The conversation sometimes feels like there is supposed to be exactly 1 Good Father, made up of Good Father Points distributed between Goku and Vegeta. And people are arguing the distribution of those points. See, if Vegeta is a bad father, then Goku has all the Good Father Points and becomes the good father by default. But if you argue that Goku is a bad father, then you must be arguing that Vegeta has all the Good Father Points, and that just can't be right, can it?
But. Like.
They can both be shit dads.
Or they can both be great dads.
It's not a seesaw. The one has nothing to do with the other.
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