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slimcoder The Head of the Hydra Since: May, 2013
The Head of the Hydra
#34401: Dec 22nd 2018 at 4:15:19 PM

It’s due to the animation & music.

That’s pretty much the gist of Jiren vs Goku.

I mean it’s not like it’s liked due to Jiren being a compelling or likable antagonist. cool

"I am Alpharius. This is a lie."
Heatth (X-Troper) Relationship Status: In Spades with myself
#34402: Dec 22nd 2018 at 4:20:08 PM

[up]I thought I already made clear in this thread I don't care that much about these things. tongue

What sold me was the way they described the final momments of the fight, with exhausted Goku, Freeza and 17 still fighting. As well as some other moments such as Jiren hesitating before (trying to) finish Goku (which I would think implies an interesting character there, but I guess this is the only interesting moment?).

Edited by Heatth on Dec 22nd 2018 at 10:20:20 AM

HandsomeRob Leader of the Holey Brotherhood from The land of broken records Since: Jan, 2015
Leader of the Holey Brotherhood
#34403: Dec 22nd 2018 at 4:21:23 PM

Toei definitely failed to make him compelling.

In this particular case, they should have held off and waited to see what Toriyama and Toyotarou were going to do, so that they had more to work with since they only knew what Jiren was going to be like after they'd already tried to give him a character (and I still kinda call Toriyama out for not giving an outline of his character right away).

One Strip! One Strip!
Kamiccolo Since: May, 2018
#34404: Dec 22nd 2018 at 4:23:49 PM

Speaking of Superman, Jiren's actually kinda interesting as a deconstruction not of Superman, but of how fans perceive Superman. There's a joke about Superman that he makes the whole f*cking Justice League superfluous. It's that awkward moment when you realize that none of these people f*cking matter because Superman's so powerful he can do anything they can and more.
Then the anime ruins this, as well as the other ironies of his character (like how we're supposed to be rooting for two mass murdering supervillains against him or how his blind focus on righting all wrongs could very well have doomed seven universes while Goku's all-avarice approach would have saved them), by making him a generic anime villain who gets triggered into a murderous rage by a speech on The Power of Friendship (another demonstration that Toei doesn't understand this series or character).

While he's not going to appear on my list of favorites any time soon, I like kind of like Manga Jiren because he is still kind of a dick (despite being otherwise far more heroic than any of the main cast), but only in the sense that he disregards other people. He seems to have respect for Belmond, despite being much stronger than him, but that's it; and even that is very minor compared to the outright deference we see from other people towards the God of Destruction; Jiren even tells him in their first exchange "no, I'm not going to compete in your tournament, go away." He lets his teammates fall out because they're obviously useless, but he also doesn't trash-talk them for being weak. Because why would he?

He actually acts like one would expect a person to act who is stuck among shitters who are both incompetent and uselessly weak, but who is strong enough to carry everything himself. If you can carry everything yourself (easily) then there's no need to get mad at your teammates for being weak, but at the same time you're not gonna pretend like they can help you. You can see similar things in how he treats his enemies. He has no respect for them but at the same time he makes it clear that he doesn't actually want to be the reason they all get erased nor does he want to witness them in distress. He doesn't even kill the giant monster he takes down in his opening, because again, why would he?

Edited by Kamiccolo on Dec 22nd 2018 at 4:31:38 AM

slimcoder The Head of the Hydra Since: May, 2013
The Head of the Hydra
#34405: Dec 22nd 2018 at 4:24:02 PM

[up][up][up] Well that’s what the fight is more or less.

There’s very little substance aside from occasional minuscule moments.

You liking the fight would basically be breaking your own rules there. tongue

Edited by slimcoder on Dec 22nd 2018 at 4:24:28 AM

"I am Alpharius. This is a lie."
VeryMelon Since: Jul, 2011 Relationship Status: Anime is my true love
#34406: Dec 22nd 2018 at 4:26:18 PM

Reminder that Jiren was originally going to have Toppo's personalty before Toriyama lost his mind and forced everyone to turn Jiren into a drone. This i even shown with Xenoverse 2's DLC Jiren, who was likely planned and executed before Toriyama figured out what they were doing.

Heatth (X-Troper) Relationship Status: In Spades with myself
#34407: Dec 22nd 2018 at 4:29:18 PM

[up][up]I mean, I am not "liking the fight", I haven't watched. I am liking what Team 4 Star described. It sounded good. If it is actually not that good aside from these moments I wouldn't be able to tell.

At very least the fight has a good finale, right? They spend half of the video describing it, so it can't be that misleading can it?

Kamiccolo Since: May, 2018
#34408: Dec 22nd 2018 at 4:29:55 PM

More like Toriyama didn't tell Toei what Jiren's personality and backstory actually were until pre-production had already started. Judging by the way the directors talk about it he must have just sent them a few sketches and maybe a few sentences along the lines of "He's a hero of his universe whose power surpasses the Gods of Destruction, and he is passionate about strength and justice." He didn't even outright tell them that Jiren was part of a superhero team, they had to figure that out themselves from his outfit.

Were Universe 11’s Pride Troopers part of Toriyama-sensei‘s designs?

Nakamura: They weren’t in his designs, but since Jiren and co. all wore the same red and black suits, he allowed us to flesh it out like that.

Takami: In sensei‘s initial rough draft, there was no information indicating Jiren’s personality. Since the tough opponents in Dragon Ball Super up until then had been nihilistic, cool characters like Hit or Zamasu, we thought it might be best to make Jiren very talkative, so we came up with the background of him being a hero of justice. Jiren was central to this squadron of heroes.

Nakamura: When we suggested that to Toriyama-sensei, he replied that “Jiren is a character who doesn’t speak.” It was then that Toriyama-sensei sent us the backstory that his parents and martial arts master had been killed. He said that Jiren was this type of character, in contrast to Hit or Zamasu.

HandsomeRob Leader of the Holey Brotherhood from The land of broken records Since: Jan, 2015
Leader of the Holey Brotherhood
#34409: Dec 22nd 2018 at 4:30:30 PM

I don't know if I'd say he lost his mind. It's more likely he had already thought up what Jiren would like, but just failed to explain it to anyone very well (since he pretty much improvs all his writing), and only went into details after he learned what Toei was doing.

Blame him for not even bothering to give them some idea of what Jiren's character was like when he first drew the character, but we can't say that the Jiren Toei came up with would have been better.

We can say they did a bad job with what they did get, but maybe if they'd had more time to get him...though considering other complaints about Toei, that seems unlikely.

Edit: Murasaki'ed.

Edited by HandsomeRob on Dec 22nd 2018 at 5:31:21 AM

One Strip! One Strip!
TheMageofFire Since: May, 2012
#34410: Dec 22nd 2018 at 4:31:12 PM

As far as the last two entries on DB Cember goes, I feel as though there's really only three fights that have a chance at this point.

- Goku vs. Piccolo (End of DB)

- Goku vs. Vegeta 1

- Everyone vs. Frieza

PushoverMediaCritic I'm sorry Tien, but I must go all out. from the Italy of America Since: Jul, 2015 Relationship Status: watch?v=dQw4w9WgXcQ
I'm sorry Tien, but I must go all out.
#34411: Dec 22nd 2018 at 4:31:40 PM

Jiren in the anime and manga are the exact same in terms of personality. They're not incredibly interesting, but there is something there. The only major difference is that Anime Jiren had his personality changed early on by Toriyama, so he had nothing until later on, and Anime Jiren went through a full character arc at the last minute, which is mostly skipped over in the manga.

Jiren is a superhero who takes his job of heroing seriously, but he's also kind of a dick. He pushes everyone else away because he thinks that "teamwork" and "friendship" is for losers and only makes you weak. Jiren got this way because of his tragic backstory where he mentor died (in the anime, it's also his whole family, village, and the team he formed to avenge them with said master). By the end of the Tournament of Power, he changes his ways and opens up to the idea of friendship and teamwork.

In the manga, this is just something he decides after he's eliminated. In the anime, he has a personality crisis during his fight with Goku and he lashes out at the audience, but Toppo makes him realize the error of his ways and he's changed by the time Goku gets back into the fight.

Kamiccolo Since: May, 2018
#34412: Dec 22nd 2018 at 4:35:28 PM

Manga Jiren never tortured people, mocked 17 for dying, called Toppo pathetic, or tried to murder the audience, so no, they're not remotely the same even ignoring the issue of all of anime Jiren's initial screen time. Anime Jiren is never actually seen doing anything remotely heroic.

Edited by Kamiccolo on Dec 22nd 2018 at 4:36:08 AM

Heatth (X-Troper) Relationship Status: In Spades with myself
#34413: Dec 22nd 2018 at 4:36:45 PM

[up][up][up]The Freeza fight is a structureless mess so I kinda hope it won't be there. Unless you count Goku's arrival as a start of another fight, because from that point on the fight is actually kinda cool.

HandsomeRob Leader of the Holey Brotherhood from The land of broken records Since: Jan, 2015
Leader of the Holey Brotherhood
#34414: Dec 22nd 2018 at 4:37:20 PM

...I don't recall Anime Jiren torturing people.

He did do that other stuff though.

One Strip! One Strip!
slimcoder The Head of the Hydra Since: May, 2013
The Head of the Hydra
#34415: Dec 22nd 2018 at 4:39:06 PM

I think Anime Jiren’s beatdown of an exhausted Vegeta counts as torture.

Cause there was no reason for him to take as long as he did to knock out Vegeta.

Edited by slimcoder on Dec 22nd 2018 at 4:39:18 AM

"I am Alpharius. This is a lie."
Heatth (X-Troper) Relationship Status: In Spades with myself
#34416: Dec 22nd 2018 at 4:39:16 PM

Btw, just how much did the writers (including Toriyama) messed up Jiren? Because everything you guys keep describing sound really cool and unique for a main antagonist. By reputation I thought he was a generic bad guy or something, not an overzealous hero. The execution much have really sucked, because the concept seems really cool.

Kamiccolo Since: May, 2018
#34417: Dec 22nd 2018 at 4:39:31 PM

[up][up][up]His "fight" with Vegeta immediately springs to mind. He really didn't need to do what he did.

Again, Manga Jiren still curb-stomps Vegeta and shows little respect for him, but he just knocks him out of Rage-Boosted Blue with two punches and then punts him out of the ring. He doesn't waste time torturing him and breaking his spirit like, well... a typical DB villain. He's more apathetic than spiteful.

He even says himself that he doesn't enjoy seeing his opponents in pain or unnecessarily toying with weaklings when Vegeta and 17 both essentially accuse him of being a typical DB villain.

Edited by Kamiccolo on Dec 22nd 2018 at 4:43:06 AM

Saiga Since: Feb, 2011 Relationship Status: Getting away with murder
#34418: Dec 22nd 2018 at 4:41:15 PM

Goku Vs Freeza is pretty good on its own, but the events leading up to it are messy yeah.

@Melon I don't think Toriyama lost his mind at all. Manga Jiren is a better character than Anime Toppo, and fits the themes much better. Anime Toppo is fun, but could also be extremely grating and really lost the fun aspects of his character later.

[up][up] In the anime he gets a lot of screen time where he's very generic, with a couple of lines that hint at more character but don't really get followed up on (as the anime does). He acts too much like a heel, and doesn't really get explored until the final couple of episodes where he goes completely off the rails and flip-flops between trying to murder the audience and showing some respect for Goku.

The manga makes him more heroic to begin with so that he feels like a superhero, but as the tournament goes on it shows that he doesn't feel the need to help his teammates due to his superior strength and this ends up being his downfall.

Edited by Saiga on Dec 22nd 2018 at 10:44:37 PM

PushoverMediaCritic I'm sorry Tien, but I must go all out. from the Italy of America Since: Jul, 2015 Relationship Status: watch?v=dQw4w9WgXcQ
I'm sorry Tien, but I must go all out.
#34419: Dec 22nd 2018 at 4:42:26 PM

Manga Jiren never tortured people

Anime Jiren didn't either. They both just fought people, and neither demonstrated a propensity either for dragging out fights or eliminating people quickly. He was trying to eliminate Vegeta, but Vegeta held onto floating chunks of the arena like 2 or 3 times and kept coming back.

mocked 17 for dying

Anime Jiren didn't either. He just said that it was a shame because it didn't work, same as manga Jiren.

called Toppo pathetic

Manga Jiren absolutely did.

or tried to murder the audience

The aforementioned "lashing out" as part of his character arc. That wasn't Jiren thinking rationally, that was him at the breaking point.

never did anything heroic

Well, that would be covered in the aforementioned "Jiren's personality was completely changed, so he got nothing early on". He still criticised Hit and Vegeta for being an assassin and not having any justice in his arrogance, respectively.

Edited by PushoverMediaCritic on Dec 22nd 2018 at 5:42:59 AM

Kamiccolo Since: May, 2018
#34420: Dec 22nd 2018 at 4:47:29 PM

Anime Jiren didn't either. They both just fought people, and neither demonstrated a propensity either for dragging out fights or eliminating people quickly. He was trying to eliminate Vegeta, but Vegeta held onto floating chunks of the arena like 2 or 3 times and kept coming back.
A Vegeta who can barely move and can't fly necessitated being pounded in the face for five minutes straight? Literally just punt him out of the ring. Like Manga Jiren. He dragged out the fight, and his later fight with Goku, because he wanted to inflict pain.
Anime Jiren didn't either. He just said that it was a shame because it didn't work, same as manga Jiren.
That's absolutely not what he said. He called 17 pathetic for "sacrificing his life for your worthless selves." He also didn't say "seeing you die does not please me" as Manga Jiren does.
The aforementioned "lashing out" as part of his character arc. That wasn't Jiren thinking rationally, that was him at the breaking point.
That was him committing premeditated murder, which Manga Jiren never even thinks about doing despite having an equally hard-won fight against MUI Goku.
Well, that would be covered in the aforementioned "Jiren's personality was completely changed, so he got nothing early on"
It's not like they couldn't have squeezed something in via flashback.
Manga Jiren absolutely did.
No he didn't, he just said "I can handle this, you guys are too weak to fight, so just watch from the bench." He didn't mock them for being weak like Anime Jiren did ("How pathetic; I expected more from you!"), he just neutrally stated facts. Because again, there's no point in getting mad at people for being weak, but you're not going to pretend that they can help either.

Edited by Kamiccolo on Dec 22nd 2018 at 4:48:30 AM

VeryMelon Since: Jul, 2011 Relationship Status: Anime is my true love
#34421: Dec 22nd 2018 at 4:51:52 PM

Guys, "lost his mind" is hyperbole. I can't believe I have to point out something so obvious.

HandsomeRob Leader of the Holey Brotherhood from The land of broken records Since: Jan, 2015
thok That's Dr. Title, thank you! (4 Score & 7 Years Ago) Relationship Status: Non-Canon
That's Dr. Title, thank you!
#34423: Dec 22nd 2018 at 4:57:59 PM

Jiren's behavior towards 17 is actually sort of interesting since it mostly shows up in the background; in particular there are multiple situations where Jiren could reasonably attack several different characters and specifically chooses to attack 17. (The most obvious one is in the final fight after Jiren retaliates the double attack from Goku and Frieza on the pillar; rather than trying to take out one of the two fighters next to him, Jiren jumps across the ring to attack 17.)

Saiga Since: Feb, 2011 Relationship Status: Getting away with murder
#34424: Dec 22nd 2018 at 4:59:50 PM

[up][up][up] you don't. I just disagreed with your point.

PushoverMediaCritic I'm sorry Tien, but I must go all out. from the Italy of America Since: Jul, 2015 Relationship Status: watch?v=dQw4w9WgXcQ
I'm sorry Tien, but I must go all out.
#34425: Dec 22nd 2018 at 5:03:33 PM

A Vegeta who can barely move and can't fly necessitated being pounded in the face for five minutes straight? Literally just punt him out of the ring. Like Manga Jiren. He dragged out the fight, and his later fight with Goku, because he wanted to inflict pain.

Again, he did knock him out multiple times, and Vegeta kept coming back because he kept landing on rubble. The extended beatdown was just padding to fill out the episode.

That's absolutely not what he said. He called 17 pathetic for "sacrificing his life for your worthless selves." He also didn't say "seeing you die does not please me" as Manga Jiren does.

I do think that line went a bit too far, but I still got a sense of regret at the loss of life from Jiren's facial animations.

That was him committing premeditated murder, which Manga Jiren never even thinks about doing despite having an equally hard-won fight against MUI Goku.

Uh, lashing out isn't premeditated. He didn't have time to think about the logical ramifications (or realize that the Angels would've just blocked it if Goku hadn't). He was angry and looking for an outlet for his frustration. I think it would've been better if he had apologized afterward, but it was still clear to me that Jiren was not in his right mind.

It's not like they couldn't have squeezed something in via flashback.

I agree, they should have included a note during his backstory that he formed the Pride Troopers to save people or something like that.

No he didn't, he just said "I can handle this, you guys are too weak to fight, so just watch from the bench." He didn't mock them for being weak like Anime Jiren did ("How pathetic; I expected more from you!"), he just neutrally stated facts. Because again, there's no point in getting mad at people for being weak, but you're not going to pretend that they can help either.

Refusing to save someone on your team and calling them worthless is absolutely worse than saying you expected better of someone. Absolutely worse. Jiren consciously and calmly refusing to save Toppo and Dyspo, even when they were yelling for help, is the worst thing Jiren did in any medium, thanks for reminding me how fucking awful that was.


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