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LSBK Since: Sep, 2014
#34351: Dec 21st 2018 at 9:52:14 PM

I don't read American comics, but I feel like their nature necessitates being more lenient about things like that.

It's not like Dragon Ball that was written by one person in an overall consistent way for years, but then got picked up by people who didn't even seem to be trying to go for consistency (with the past, or even with themselves).

Edited by LSBK on Dec 21st 2018 at 11:52:30 AM

Yumil Mad Archivist Since: Mar, 2016
Mad Archivist
#34352: Dec 22nd 2018 at 3:53:08 AM

that kind of thing is precisely why I'm not in a hurry to read any comic book. That and authors not agreeing to what direction ake a character in, and having to constantly reset the status quo to let other people play with their toys. Except Sandman. But since that one has only one author and ended for good 20 years ago it's alright.

But yeah, flash jobbing to people that should be way out of its league demonstrates nothing more than bad writing. Just because one time a guy who could make everything he imagined real lost to someone whose only power was to hit really really hard in bleach (God I hate that fight with a passion) doesn't mean Imagination-Based Superpower isn't a completely broken power.

Edited by Yumil on Dec 22nd 2018 at 12:53:32 PM

"when you stare too long into the abyss, Xehanort takes advantage of the distraction to break into your house and steal all your shit."
unnoun Since: Jan, 2012
#34353: Dec 22nd 2018 at 4:15:36 AM

What's interesting to me with Super is that some of the worst and most inconsistent parts with previous Dragon Ball all seem to be Toriyama's idea.

Like, he's redirected Goku's characterization hard.

Honestly, the main reason I like the Super anime better than the manga is the filler.

Goku spending time with his family and friends and liking it and liking them.

It'a almost seeming defiance on Toei's part of Toriyama's mandate but I like it and Akira Toriyama will have to come to my home with a gun and pry it from my cold dead hands.

As a result of that filler, we end up with, instead of extremes like "best father and husband Goku" or "bad dad and bad man Goku", instead it ends up as "brain-damaged hick Son Goku, who loves his family so much but doesn't entirely know what he's doing", which I personally like and prefer. Because it's interesting.

Goku in the Super anime willingly spends time with Goten and Pan sometimes. For dumb slice of life shit like farming or whatever.

Part of me always wanted a slice of life anime with Dragon Ball characters, and.

Honestly, the fact that Super is set before the End of Z makes me think that's what Super should be. Continuity wise, it seems sorta like a retcon? Like, Bulma and Krillin honestly shouldn't be as mad about Goku not calling if they saw each other a week ago to fight Super Mega Ultra Hyper Goat or whatever.

The fact that they randomly meet for shit like Bulma's birthday makes her anger over not calling seem way less justified than if there was just no contact for ten years.

ultimatepheer Since: Mar, 2011
#34354: Dec 22nd 2018 at 6:31:17 AM

I have to agree with that kind of sentiment; Super was at its best not when it tried heavy stories, but for the cute Slice of Life in between, when we get to see characters just living their lives and being friends and family.

The Great Saiyaman arc was fantastic.

slimcoder The Head of the Hydra Since: May, 2013
The Head of the Hydra
#34355: Dec 22nd 2018 at 6:58:15 AM

[up][up][up] My recommendation for comic books is too find specific runs & volumes.

Generally a writer each has his own vision or interpretation for the character like in Batman’s case he was written differently by Grant Morrison, Scott Snyder, or currently Tom King. These runs generally go on for several years so there’s a lot of material to enjoy so just find a run that sounds comfortable, enjoyable, or interesting to you.

There’s also characters who have mostly been written by one writer offering greater consistency with the character. Such as Ms Marvel who since her creation in 2014 has been written primarily by her creator G. Willow Wilson thus giving the character a single & distinct voice.

"I am Alpharius. This is a lie."
BlackYakuzu94 CHADhan Player. from Easy Coast/NY Since: May, 2013 Relationship Status: Longing for my OTP
CHADhan Player.
#34356: Dec 22nd 2018 at 7:05:55 AM

The slide of life stuff only works BECAUSE they tend to come after the bigger story arcs. An entire series about that would get boring real fast.

A lazy millennial who's good at what he does.
unknowing from somewhere.. Since: Mar, 2014
#34357: Dec 22nd 2018 at 7:54:44 AM

[up]I wil said my issue witht he slice of life is that ti clearly padding before they get into movies, I like the slice of life of gohan before boo.

"My Name is Bolt, Bolt Crank and I dont care if you believe or not"
TobiasDrake (•̀⤙•́) (Edited uphill both ways) Relationship Status: Arm chopping is not a love language!
(•̀⤙•́)
#34358: Dec 22nd 2018 at 8:17:09 AM

As a result of that filler, we end up with, instead of extremes like "best father and husband Goku" or "bad dad and bad man Goku", instead it ends up as "brain-damaged hick Son Goku, who loves his family so much but doesn't entirely know what he's doing", which I personally like and prefer. Because it's interesting.

See, this is where you and I differ.

I actually like and prefer that Goku's a bad family man. I feel like it's really easy to say that because someone is a good guy, that means they are virtuous and noble in everything they do. Bob saves the world, so that means Bob is also a loving partner to his wife. Bob fights crime, so that means Bob is also a nurturing father. Bob once stopped a bus from running into a school building, so that means that Bob always gives money to homeless people when he's not busy campaigning against climate change.

It's the rush to define the character around the generic notion that the character is good. It doesn't matter what their personality or characteristics are, the character is good, so they always do good things in every walk of their life. And I feel like that's a really simplistic and reductive way to treat characters.

We saw this not long ago in the Avatar fandom. Series protagonist Aang grew up to be a neglectful dad, and fans threw a fit over it. Because Aang was the hero of the piece, there was an assumption that he would be a perfect father. But he was a man very busy with trying to preserve his exterminated culture and that sometimes meant his family came second. That's interesting to me. That feels real.

Goku doesn't need to be a good dad for me to like him. I liked him before he was even any sort of dad, and it wasn't because of an undying drive to build social connections or any kind of boundless love and faith to Chi-Chi. Goku never struck me as the kind of person who would be a good family man, so it's not really a deal-breaker for me that he's not.

My Tumblr. Currently side-by-side liveblogging Digimon Adventure, sub vs dub.
HandsomeRob Leader of the Holey Brotherhood from The land of broken records Since: Jan, 2015
Leader of the Holey Brotherhood
#34359: Dec 22nd 2018 at 8:52:02 AM

See, while I agree with unnoun (I like the slice of life filler myself), I also get where Tobias is coming from.

I still stand by my opinion that Super needed a unified direction. Make the manga first to set the groundwork, then have the anime come later, filling in any extra characterization or adding some moments (with supervision from Toriyama, or more likely Toyotarou to avoid any contradictions) to further explore concepts that the manga wouldn't bother with due to both Toriyama's style and it's quicker pace.

Have Toyotarou or Toriyama come up with some stuff that happens offscreen, that Toei then animates to fill time...or just be seasonal.

If they didn't care more about money then telling a good story, that's what they could have done.

One Strip! One Strip!
VeryMelon Since: Jul, 2011 Relationship Status: Anime is my true love
#34360: Dec 22nd 2018 at 9:07:28 AM

The problem is the assumption that Toriyama laid any groundwork to tell a good story, much less that Toei or Toyotaro would ever meaningfully deviate from his major plot points. Being anime or manga first also wouldn't change anything as far as quality goes, for those same reasons.

HandsomeRob Leader of the Holey Brotherhood from The land of broken records Since: Jan, 2015
Leader of the Holey Brotherhood
#34361: Dec 22nd 2018 at 9:54:18 AM

Yeah that's true. Toriyama just doesn't seem to care at all for planning things out. Even when he has the time to do so, he barely bothers.

I do think that one coming first would allow one side (mainly the anime side) to have something to work with, and reign in their tendency to do...well everything wrong and obsess with nostalgia.

True, Toriyama doesn't seem to be a nostalgia guy...or at least not as pointlessly nostalgia as Toei is, but if they were following what he and Toyotarou already did, it would prevent crazy bullshit like Spirit Sword...or properly foreshadow it instead for those who like it despite it's stupidity (<points at self>), or other things.

One Strip! One Strip!
Ghilz Perpetually Confused from Yeeted at Relativistic Velocities Since: Jan, 2001 Relationship Status: Barbecuing
Perpetually Confused
#34362: Dec 22nd 2018 at 12:11:17 PM

gets ready for butthurt coz Super

slimcoder The Head of the Hydra Since: May, 2013
The Head of the Hydra
#34363: Dec 22nd 2018 at 12:13:54 PM

Ah that beautiful animation.

Who's the guy who worked on that? We keep praising him like a God. tongue

"I am Alpharius. This is a lie."
fasoman1996 Google "big ears" from Argentina (A.K.A. Naziland) Since: Dec, 2014 Relationship Status: Baby don't hurt me!
Google "big ears"
#34364: Dec 22nd 2018 at 12:14:21 PM

The same one that did the infamous episode 5

Uni cat
PushoverMediaCritic I'm sorry Tien, but I must go all out. from the Italy of America Since: Jul, 2015 Relationship Status: watch?v=dQw4w9WgXcQ
I'm sorry Tien, but I must go all out.
#34365: Dec 22nd 2018 at 12:15:25 PM

They seem to be counting everything from the point Goku goes Ultra Instinct "Omen" onwards as a single fight. Yeah, that makes sense. Honestly, I think you could fold in a lot of the earlier fighting against Jiren, too, but that is when the fight goes from good to great.

HandsomeRob Leader of the Holey Brotherhood from The land of broken records Since: Jan, 2015
Leader of the Holey Brotherhood
#34366: Dec 22nd 2018 at 12:21:19 PM

So, any thoughts on the last two slots.

Goku vs Vegeta round 1 will probably make it in there I think. Maybe Goku vs Hit as well.

...besides 17 vs Piccolo, are there any big fights that don't have Goku in them?

One Strip! One Strip!
PushoverMediaCritic I'm sorry Tien, but I must go all out. from the Italy of America Since: Jul, 2015 Relationship Status: watch?v=dQw4w9WgXcQ
I'm sorry Tien, but I must go all out.
#34367: Dec 22nd 2018 at 12:23:53 PM

The last two will be Goku vs Freeza and Goku, Krillin, and Gohan vs Vegeta, I'm sure of it. Not sure on the order, but I'd be shocked if those weren't the top two. Those wouldn't even be my top two, but those will definitely be TFS's.

HandsomeRob Leader of the Holey Brotherhood from The land of broken records Since: Jan, 2015
Leader of the Holey Brotherhood
#34368: Dec 22nd 2018 at 12:25:11 PM

Huh. Those are some good fights I admit.

One Strip! One Strip!
VeryMelon Since: Jul, 2011 Relationship Status: Anime is my true love
#34369: Dec 22nd 2018 at 12:28:54 PM

Definitely do not care about this fight. Since I find everything about Jiren's character, anime or manga, to be incredibly flaccid it's impossible for me to invest anything into how pretty his fight with Goku looks.

fasoman1996 Google "big ears" from Argentina (A.K.A. Naziland) Since: Dec, 2014 Relationship Status: Baby don't hurt me!
Google "big ears"
#34370: Dec 22nd 2018 at 12:31:14 PM

Although i must admit, Goku punching this wall is well animated and pretty to look at.

Uni cat
unnoun Since: Jan, 2012
#34371: Dec 22nd 2018 at 12:47:50 PM

Me seeing Goku as being caring for his family has nothing to do with his virtue, especially since I don't necessarily see Son Goku as especially virtuous.

He's probably better, in my mind, at being a family man than he is at being a hero.

...I leave it to the reader which of those bars to clear is lower.

This scene is the definitive one for Son Goku for me because every time I watch or read it I cry.

Whether that's the criteria I should be judging on is probably a good question. But that scene sticks with me.

Kamiccolo Since: May, 2018
#34372: Dec 22nd 2018 at 12:53:28 PM

That's even more pedestrian than I was expecting.

I know a lot of people like it, but in my opinion Jiren vs Goku was terrible, overly flash schlock, and the biggest proof possible that Toei doesn't "get" Toriyama's writing at all. All it has going for it is KA KA KA KA KACHI DAZE.

[up]I maintain that Grandpa Gohan was the only person who Goku ever genuinely loved. I cannot see him treasuring a material object (the most worthless of things to Goku) for the sake of anyone else.

Edited by Kamiccolo on Dec 22nd 2018 at 12:57:22 PM

LSBK Since: Sep, 2014
#34373: Dec 22nd 2018 at 12:54:43 PM

I think I get what unnoun is saying, and I agree. Goku doesn't have to be a good husband or father (I wouldn't argue that he is), but the idea that he doesn't get family at all never really fit to me based on what we've shown of him.

Edited by LSBK on Dec 22nd 2018 at 3:06:50 AM

PushoverMediaCritic I'm sorry Tien, but I must go all out. from the Italy of America Since: Jul, 2015 Relationship Status: watch?v=dQw4w9WgXcQ
I'm sorry Tien, but I must go all out.
#34374: Dec 22nd 2018 at 12:59:54 PM

[up][up]Tone down the arrogance, there, bud.

I agree with unnoun, too, if we have to choose between Goku the family man and Goku the hero man, I'm taking Goku the family man.

Edited by PushoverMediaCritic on Dec 22nd 2018 at 2:00:11 AM

unnoun Since: Jan, 2012
#34375: Dec 22nd 2018 at 1:03:08 PM

Goku spent five years with Gohan and Chi-Chi without training.

We're always shown pictures of Goku and Gohan playing and laughing and smiling at each other.

Kids need that, more than,they need an emotionally unavailable houseplant like Vegeta.

[up] I mean, again, I'm willing to concede that both might be shit choices.

But if Goku does something for his family I'm more likely to believe it was because he wanted to do something for his family.

...Maybe he got lucky that his attempt was successful.

Usually when Goku does saving or heroing it's not really on the list of priorities.

Edited by unnoun on Dec 22nd 2018 at 4:05:28 AM


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