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Moth13 Since: Sep, 2010
#34326: Dec 21st 2018 at 5:01:28 PM

In the anime, it legit is a Godzilla Threshold moment and Zen-o's erasure saves the multiverse; Goku did a good.

I'm pretty sure Zamasu was threatening to extend his destruction to the present timeline in both the anime and the manga.

HandsomeRob Leader of the Holey Brotherhood from The land of broken records Since: Jan, 2015
Leader of the Holey Brotherhood
#34327: Dec 21st 2018 at 5:03:53 PM

Yeah. but he was actually doing it in the anime (via crazy infinite wallpaper bullshit).

In the manga, he just had a plan for how to do it, but was still not actually at the point of being able to do so (more due to not getting a chance than any lack of commitment).

[up][up] Yeah, that's what I'm saying. He loves his characters being jerks, or if not jerks then not overtly heroic, even if they are nice.

I mean, the current manner of writing Goku comes entirely from him not liking them trying to make the guy a superhero...as he fricking rips off Superman's origin story even harder than before via Minus.

One Strip! One Strip!
PushoverMediaCritic I'm sorry Tien, but I must go all out. from the Italy of America Since: Jul, 2015 Relationship Status: watch?v=dQw4w9WgXcQ
I'm sorry Tien, but I must go all out.
#34328: Dec 21st 2018 at 5:08:28 PM

In both versions, everyone else on Earth is already dead, and in both versions, Zamasu has a way to access other timelines. In the anime, it's because he's bleeding through reality, in the manga, it's because he has the U12 time machine which he never mentioned up until this point.

I prefer the anime version because it makes Goku's naivete in suggesting the Tournament of Power a bit more believable, and it escalates the severity of Goku's decision from the previous arc better. Zeno destroying Trunks' timeline is supposed to be dark foreshadowing for the Tournament of Power's absurdly high stakes.

Edited by PushoverMediaCritic on Dec 21st 2018 at 6:09:58 AM

unnoun Since: Jan, 2012
#34329: Dec 21st 2018 at 5:10:54 PM

Oolong also drugged Bulma once with sleeping juice so he could rape her while she was naked, in his bed and roofed.

TobiasDrake (•̀⤙•́) (Edited uphill both ways) Relationship Status: Arm chopping is not a love language!
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#34330: Dec 21st 2018 at 5:10:58 PM

Speaking of Superman, Jiren's actually kinda interesting as a deconstruction not of Superman, but of how fans perceive Superman. There's a joke about Superman that he makes the whole f*cking Justice League superfluous. It's that awkward moment when you realize that none of these people f*cking matter because Superman's so powerful he can do anything they can and more.

"Oh, the Flash. All he does is run fast. Superman's just as fast AND SO MUCH MORE. Green Lantern? Get bent, Superman can fly rings around your stupid ass. Batman? A goddamn mortal man? He couldn't hold a candle to Superman's invincible power. Superman just hangs out with these guys out of pity."

And it's a totally unfair read of Superman. But that is Jiren. That is absolutely Jiren. Jiren's problem is that he's the Superman that buys into his own hype and legit does feel like he totally doesn't need this league of weaker characters holding him back.

Jiren is a Superman on a journey to arrive at the place that actual Superman's great for already being in: a place where he acknowledges and respects the contributions of his peers, even if they can't necessarily do everything he can.

My Tumblr. Currently side-by-side liveblogging Digimon Adventure, sub vs dub.
unknowing from somewhere.. Since: Mar, 2014
#34331: Dec 21st 2018 at 5:25:30 PM

[up]Well to be fair, Superman DOES make the othe rsuperflous because the writers kept make him one of the most powerfull guys EVER.

I mean people complain about the bat god but superman resist a nova, outrun a black hole, can hear things outside of space, and fandom just said "this canon, superman is intersting if he can do whatever he wants".

I mean is hard not to see him a god when superman just given al the crap he can do.

"My Name is Bolt, Bolt Crank and I dont care if you believe or not"
PushoverMediaCritic I'm sorry Tien, but I must go all out. from the Italy of America Since: Jul, 2015 Relationship Status: watch?v=dQw4w9WgXcQ
I'm sorry Tien, but I must go all out.
#34332: Dec 21st 2018 at 6:04:32 PM

I've always been of the opinion that Superman's power should never exceed that of the sun that powers him, so solar-system level at absolute maximum. I love Superman as a character, and the whole "nah, he's totally supposed to not have any limits whatsoever" debate just makes me mad. I feel like it misses the point of who Superman is and misinterprets who the character is supposed to be.

By the way, here's a thought I've had for a LOOOONG time, but I've never remembered to bring it up before: since the Super-Friends canonically exist in DBZA, should Aquaman summoning a tidal wave be what defeats Bio-Broly? It's not like they haven't done crazy crackfic endings for the movies before, and no-one really cares about the ending of Bio-Broly.

Edited by PushoverMediaCritic on Dec 21st 2018 at 7:05:24 AM

slimcoder The Head of the Hydra Since: May, 2013
The Head of the Hydra
#34333: Dec 21st 2018 at 6:08:51 PM

Flash is more powerful than Superman anyway.

He can just vibrate your molecules & infinite mass punch you.

Plus Green Lantern should really be as strong or stronger than Supes but you’d never know it because they KEEP WORFING HIM!

[up][up] Eh Aquaman, Wonder Woman, Cyborg, Flash, Green Lantern are all hella strong & each are capable of shit Supes is unable to do. Supes is primarily the inspiration & beacon of hope.

I’m not gonna hold it against Supes just because of incompetent writers.

Edited by slimcoder on Dec 21st 2018 at 6:13:53 AM

"I am Alpharius. This is a lie."
Kamiccolo Since: May, 2018
#34334: Dec 21st 2018 at 7:19:59 PM

Flash is a jobber. No matter how much hype he ultimately gets, and what his capabilities supposedly are, at the end of the day he'll still have trouble with a guy with boomerangs or a guy who got killed by a pistol-wielding Batman, while Superman will be the only one who can stop Brainiac/Darkseid/whoever the latest Big Bad is.

PushoverMediaCritic I'm sorry Tien, but I must go all out. from the Italy of America Since: Jul, 2015 Relationship Status: watch?v=dQw4w9WgXcQ
I'm sorry Tien, but I must go all out.
#34335: Dec 21st 2018 at 7:27:21 PM

Didn't Darkseid get killed by a pistol-wielding Batman?

Moth13 Since: Sep, 2010
#34336: Dec 21st 2018 at 7:31:37 PM

He was in a human body at the time.

slimcoder The Head of the Hydra Since: May, 2013
The Head of the Hydra
#34337: Dec 21st 2018 at 7:34:46 PM

[up][up][up] He actually did save the day against Brainthor that one time.

Besides the Rogues are clever bastards. They made it a challenge to test to see how well they can do against the Flash.

Edited by slimcoder on Dec 21st 2018 at 7:35:57 AM

"I am Alpharius. This is a lie."
Kamiccolo Since: May, 2018
#34338: Dec 21st 2018 at 7:54:57 PM

[up][up][up] He actually did save the day against Brainthor that one time.
In one continuity, with an It Only Works Once technique...

Suffice to say there's a reason that every show, comic, or game featuring him has him jobbing something fierce. His most recent big appearances are the Justice League movie (where knocks himself out by tripping), Injustice 2 (where he jobs to Deadshot), and the CW show (where he jobs to.. everything and everyone).

Besides the Rogues are clever bastards.
The rogues are regular criminals with gimmicks like "has a flamethrower" or "throws boomerangs" or "carries exploding rubber chickens."

Edited by Kamiccolo on Dec 21st 2018 at 7:55:04 AM

slimcoder The Head of the Hydra Since: May, 2013
The Head of the Hydra
#34339: Dec 21st 2018 at 7:57:37 PM

Bad writing what can I say.

"I am Alpharius. This is a lie."
Kamiccolo Since: May, 2018
#34340: Dec 21st 2018 at 7:58:06 PM

The bad writing is pretending he's powerful in the first place when he's always going to job to street-levelers.

slimcoder The Head of the Hydra Since: May, 2013
The Head of the Hydra
#34341: Dec 21st 2018 at 8:01:20 PM

And Batman gets his ass regularly beaten by crazy people despite being one of the best martial artists on the planet and Green Lantern’s constructs are fragile like glass despite having unshakable willpower.

What’s your point?

Edited by slimcoder on Dec 21st 2018 at 8:02:01 AM

"I am Alpharius. This is a lie."
KarkatTheDalek Not as angry as the name would suggest. from Somwhere in Time/Space Since: Mar, 2012 Relationship Status: You're a beautiful woman, probably
Not as angry as the name would suggest.
#34342: Dec 21st 2018 at 8:01:51 PM

There is no pretense to his power - any look at his most impressive feats should make that clear. The problem comes when he loses fights that he should logically win, which one could argue might necessitate a general power decrease if writers want to keep using the Rogues, or at least a more established justification for not curb-stomping them all the time.

Oh God! Natural light!
LSBK Since: Sep, 2014
#34343: Dec 21st 2018 at 8:08:25 PM

It kind of sounds like these characters in general weren't created with what all they're supposed to be able to do in mind (what with having how many different writers over the years?) but they still have a ton of "archenemies" built in who still have to challenge them even when it makes no sense.

Or at least, that sounds like one problem.

unknowing from somewhere.. Since: Mar, 2014
#34344: Dec 21st 2018 at 8:09:46 PM

I will said that super heroes, specially one with DC suffer a no limits fallacy, Superman can do pretty much everythings and so heroes really get mad whatever super get limited somehow, the same with Flash, Bat and the rest, I mean i would surprise you but thw DCCU actually have clear limits of waht he can do, which is nice in general.

with dragon ball(to return the same issue), is that as power scaling goes up, very chararter can catch up, is becoming a worrying trend.

"My Name is Bolt, Bolt Crank and I dont care if you believe or not"
slimcoder The Head of the Hydra Since: May, 2013
The Head of the Hydra
#34345: Dec 21st 2018 at 8:13:11 PM

[up][up] Well these characters were created at a time when logic and reasoning weren't big things to worry about in comics.

Its the Grandfather Clause, its the same reason why Batman still has Robin today despite Robin being an example of child endangerment and traumatizing children and even death and violent insanity in Jason's case.

Though why these characters are kept, similar reasoning as to why the humans here stay around. Their lovable oafs you keep want to keep on seeing.

Edited by slimcoder on Dec 21st 2018 at 8:16:29 AM

"I am Alpharius. This is a lie."
Thebrawlbro Since: Aug, 2013
#34346: Dec 21st 2018 at 8:17:02 PM

This is definetly an argument better suited for the Death Battle forum.

Kamiccolo Since: May, 2018
#34347: Dec 21st 2018 at 8:32:46 PM

any look at his most impressive feats should make that clear
Looking at "only his most impressive feats" in the first place is the problem.
It kind of sounds like these characters in general weren't created with what all they're supposed to be able to do in mind (what with having how many different writers over the years?) but they still have a ton of "archenemies" built in who still have to challenge them even when it makes no sense.

Or at least, that sounds like one problem

A good example of this is Superman. At his premise, Modern Superman fights planetary scale or larger enemies. "Feats" aside, when we think of Superman, we think of outrageously powerful villains who can easily threaten all the Earth, or even the galaxy (ditto DB villains, incidentally). General Zod, Brainiac, Darkseid, Doomsday, and so on. No matter what their exact power level is in the version, Superman villains who debuted 20 or more years after him are consistently capable of single-handedly conquering the world or at least threatening to destroy it. Superman is in turn not laughably outclassed by them. But this gets turned on its head with legacy villains. Lex Luthor is the stand-out here, since he really is not in the weight class of any of Superman's other villains. So now writers have to say he's almost as smart as Brainiac and can build Supermen in his garage.
will said that super heroes, specially one with DC suffer a no limits fallacy, Superman can do pretty much everythings
Superman can't do everything. Despite what Death Battle may have told you, Post-Crisis Superman is consistently presented as relatively weak; getting knocked out by a trillionth of a trillionth of a supernova, knocking himself out destroying the Shadow Moon, getting injured by punches said to be "enough to rend asunder a small planet", events that affect celestial objects in general being treated as a huge deal for him that require a lot of wind-up on his part to match, and so on. At one point he was actually a big case of Uniqueness Decay when it seemed like every Flying Brick or superpowered alien in the DCU could match or beat him.

Edited by Kamiccolo on Dec 21st 2018 at 8:40:29 AM

KarkatTheDalek Not as angry as the name would suggest. from Somwhere in Time/Space Since: Mar, 2012 Relationship Status: You're a beautiful woman, probably
Not as angry as the name would suggest.
#34348: Dec 21st 2018 at 8:48:17 PM

Looking at "only his most impressive feats" in the first place is the problem.

That's not what I said. I said "his most impressive feats" because I figured that those were the best demonstrations of how powerful he was, as a counter to your claim that he isn't really that strong. Even then, there are plenty of more mid-tier feats that ought to show why he's considered one of DC's big guns.

Oh God! Natural light!
Kamiccolo Since: May, 2018
#34349: Dec 21st 2018 at 8:51:16 PM

I said "his most impressive feats" because I figured that those were the best demonstrations of how powerful he was, as a counter to your claim that he isn't really that strong
And I, in turn, could cite a much larger body of evidence that he's not that strong (or that if he is that strong, it doesn't matter, because he'll always find a way to lose). Hence, why I said "looking at his most impressive feats" was the problem. They don't fit the context of the rest of the universe and character.

But that's a topic for another day.

slimcoder The Head of the Hydra Since: May, 2013
The Head of the Hydra
#34350: Dec 21st 2018 at 9:07:03 PM

Yes, yes comic books are inconsistent.

That is a fact most people are aware of indeed.

Edited by slimcoder on Dec 21st 2018 at 9:07:57 AM

"I am Alpharius. This is a lie."

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