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LSBK Since: Sep, 2014
#34301: Dec 21st 2018 at 3:31:04 PM

I don't think calling both "Kienzan" implies that either is copying the other. As was already mentioned, Vegeta used a similar technique to cut off Gohan's tail.

As far as Frieza controlling his goes, people have already been shown to be able to control ki attack movements, and Frieza specifically can use telekinesis. Frieza being able to move his around does not necessitate it being a different (functional) technique.

Edited by LSBK on Dec 21st 2018 at 5:31:47 AM

Saiga Since: Feb, 2011 Relationship Status: Getting away with murder
#34302: Dec 21st 2018 at 3:31:46 PM

While I can understand your points about story importance, dramatic weight, etc (and those are all important) if I fight doesn't look fun to watch it has (usually) failed as a fight.

I don't think I agree. Fights can be so much more than just a scene to be looked at in a vacuum. Saying something failed 'as a fight' would be really pointless if the intent of the fight was to be something other than a spectacle.

@Heatth Kienzan was used multiple times because it had a specific purpose. The beam moves don't, and using them as one-offs keeps those scenes as being iconic.

If there's no difference between the Galick Gun and a generic ki beam except flair, why ruin the flare by using it at every moment? Super just devalues these techniques through their over-use, such as Vegeta spamming the Final Flash.

Edited by Saiga on Dec 21st 2018 at 9:32:28 PM

LSBK Since: Sep, 2014
#34303: Dec 21st 2018 at 3:33:04 PM

[up]I mean, I think ideally the best moments of a fight with have the most impact in a vacuum, or as part of the larger purpose of whatever is going on. But that can't always be the case, and I don't really see a problem with that.

But anyway, I put "usually" in parenthesis for a reason; trying to acknowledge that their can be reasons for things to be understated (or whatever term you think works best).

Edited by LSBK on Dec 21st 2018 at 5:34:11 AM

Heatth (X-Troper) Relationship Status: In Spades with myself
#34304: Dec 21st 2018 at 3:43:11 PM

I'm actually less bothered about Trunks knowing the Galick Gun than I am about the Genki-Dama.

Wait that is a thing? Wow. Yeah, that, that is ridiculous on its face. Like, it is the one move we know for a fact it is hard to learn. Seriously, I don't think we ever heard other move be hyped up like that. I guess the Kamehameha in its first appearance, but since then everyone and their dogs were able to copy it by watching. Speaking of which, when did Trunks even see the Genkidama?

Kamiccolo Since: May, 2018
#34305: Dec 21st 2018 at 3:45:53 PM

The Kaio-Ken and Instant Movement are hyped up as really hard to learn, which is why even its creator never mastered the former (thinking anything beyond x2 was essentially undoable) and why the latter took even Goku nearly two years to learn.

randomness4 Ghost '11 from The Land of Inconvenience Since: Sep, 2011
Ghost '11
#34306: Dec 21st 2018 at 3:50:59 PM

Trunks at least saw Cell use the Galick Gun...so that's something.

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unknowing from somewhere.. Since: Mar, 2014
#34307: Dec 21st 2018 at 4:00:13 PM

One thing here: I never said dramatic weight I said tension which is diferent, wieght is how certein scene(on ir this case, fights) matter in the grand scale of thing, tension is how the fight will go on and for me is why DB was able to hook people, it feel dynamic and intense and fill with tension in a why other shonen do not.

"My Name is Bolt, Bolt Crank and I dont care if you believe or not"
PushoverMediaCritic I'm sorry Tien, but I must go all out. from the Italy of America Since: Jul, 2015 Relationship Status: watch?v=dQw4w9WgXcQ
I'm sorry Tien, but I must go all out.
#34308: Dec 21st 2018 at 4:14:27 PM

Trunks doesn't actually USE the Spirit Bomb, per say. It just kind of... happens. He's as surprised by its appearance as everyone else is. If there's one thing I could change about that arc, it would be that Goku starts the Spirit Bomb when no-one's looking. As it is, it comes off more as an act of divine intervention (more than the literal act of divine intervention does).

LordVatek Not really a lord of anything Since: Sep, 2014
Not really a lord of anything
#34309: Dec 21st 2018 at 4:17:22 PM

Goku in the after life preparing the Spirit Bomb: Hey hey watch this. I'm totally going to freak Trunks out.

This song needs more love.
WillKeaton from Alberta, Canada Since: Jun, 2010
#34310: Dec 21st 2018 at 4:17:28 PM

Why was Zamasu even able to, I'm not even sure what he did, it's like he became Gygas all of a sudden and I have no idea how that could even happen. Like, maybe because all the gods were dead the fabric of spacetime was coming apart? That's the only thing I can conclude.

ultimatepheer Since: Mar, 2011
#34311: Dec 21st 2018 at 4:19:55 PM

I think the implication was that, in the anime at least, since he was an immortal god fused with a not-immortal not-god, when Trunks killed him he only killed half of him, which tried regenerating infinitely until shenanigans happened and Zeno ex machina.

Vegeto should've just finished Zamasu, really.

PushoverMediaCritic I'm sorry Tien, but I must go all out. from the Italy of America Since: Jul, 2015 Relationship Status: watch?v=dQw4w9WgXcQ
I'm sorry Tien, but I must go all out.
#34312: Dec 21st 2018 at 4:20:59 PM

He's immortal and his body was destroyed, so the universe glitched and made him into an Admin. Unfortunately for him, the developer can remove Admin privileges with a hard system reset.

HandsomeRob Leader of the Holey Brotherhood from The land of broken records Since: Jan, 2015
Leader of the Holey Brotherhood
#34313: Dec 21st 2018 at 4:27:29 PM

Cell versus Goku is not one I'd pick because it's literally just there to tease the actual fight between Cell and Gohan. Without the anime padding it out with some fighting choreography I doubt they'd have considered it.

Honestly, with all the times other fights have just acted as a teased for Goku vs the Big Bad, I'm pretty ok with Goku himself being the prelude for once.

[up][up] Vegetto didn't need to finish Zamasu. Just buy enough time for them to use the Mafuuba...which could have been an option if Toriyama didn't decide to have Goku forget the tags.

Basically, have the jar get destroyed like they did in the anime, and the others struggle to put it back together. Things get hairy and Goku and Vegeta are forced to fuse into Vegetto, who is superior to Fused Zamasu, but can't actually kill him due to the latter's immortality. Vegetto keeps him pinned down, but his fusion time starts running out. Then Trunks arrives with the repaired jar, Mafuuba's the hell out of Mr. Zero Mortals, and saves the day.

And voila. All the stupid shit about both versions of this arc (as opposed to any issues from the individual versions ) is dead.

And yes, I did just suggest something that eliminates the Spirit Sword...and I like the Spirit Sword...which I also recognize as the dumbest thing ever.

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TobiasDrake (•̀⤙•́) (Edited uphill both ways) Relationship Status: Arm chopping is not a love language!
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#34314: Dec 21st 2018 at 4:34:21 PM

Wait that is a thing? Wow. Yeah, that, that is ridiculous on its face. Like, it is the one move we know for a fact it is hard to learn. Seriously, I don't think we ever heard other move be hyped up like that. I guess the Kamehameha in its first appearance, but since then everyone and their dogs were able to copy it by watching. Speaking of which, when did Trunks even see the Genkidama?

It's in Anime Super. The Genki-Dama creates a giant glowing spirit sword that Trunks uses to run through Zamasu.

In the manga, Trunks just stabs Zamasu. With his sword. It raises far fewer questions.

Why was Zamasu even able to, I'm not even sure what he did, it's like he became Gygas all of a sudden and I have no idea how that could even happen. Like, maybe because all the gods were dead the fabric of spacetime was coming apart? That's the only thing I can conclude.

That's another one of those things I've heard about the anime that just seems f*cking weird and/or dumb. Zamasu, like, becomes a dimension or some shit. Because reasons, I guess?

In the manga, Zamasu's immortality f*cks up the defusing process. Remember that time Semi-Perfect Cell Zenkai'd back into Perfect Cell? It's kinda like that. When Zamasu's fusion ends, he's split out into component parts that both regenerate into Fused Zamasu, because Zamasu is immortal erego Fused Zamasu is immortal.

And then he starts regenerating more Fused Zamasus when pieces of him are cut off or otherwise separated, because at this point he's basically a metaphysical glitch in the defusing process and any part of him that comes off is considered a defused component that then regenerates into Fused Zamasu.

And that shit is why you don't f*cking let people wish for immortality.

It's still kinda wonky as an explanation, but at least it makes more sense than whatever this nonsense is supposed to be. God, this whole arc was f*ckstupid.

Edited by TobiasDrake on Dec 21st 2018 at 5:36:26 AM

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Saiga Since: Feb, 2011 Relationship Status: Getting away with murder
#34315: Dec 21st 2018 at 4:37:00 PM

And voila. All the stupid shit about both versions of this arc (as opposed to any issues from the individual versions ) is dead.

The Mafuba being destroyed was incredibly dumb so you haven't quite fixed that.

As was Goku spending a day training to learn the Mafuba only for Trunks to learn how to do it from a phone recording.

VeryMelon Since: Jul, 2011 Relationship Status: Anime is my true love
#34316: Dec 21st 2018 at 4:39:54 PM

Wallpaper Zamasu doesn't make sense because there's no reason for it that could allow for a coherent series of events to foreshadow or explain it.

HandsomeRob Leader of the Holey Brotherhood from The land of broken records Since: Jan, 2015
Leader of the Holey Brotherhood
#34317: Dec 21st 2018 at 4:39:55 PM

[up][up][up]

I still stand by my opinion that Wallpaper Infinite Zamasu was at least a threat worthy of wiping out an entire timeline to stop.

As I said, in the anime it shows Zen-O's power (being able to erase an incorporeal being that was spreading out to other timelines and dimensions by nuking an entire universe). In the manga, it shows his...callousness (he didn't actually need to destroy the entirety of Trunks' timeline because Zamasu had physical bodies that could have been taken out at once).

That being said, I just remembered that I loved how when Zen-O showed up and got ready to erase him. The Zamasu army basically made a run for it. The sight of that bitch fleeing like a bitch a hundred times over is beautiful. I can't deny that.

Edit: [up][up] You mean, Zamasu or Black just destroying the jar in a lucky shot (not necessarily Goku forgetting it in the time machine? I don't think so. That creates a bit of tension.

Edited by HandsomeRob on Dec 21st 2018 at 5:42:22 AM

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Moth13 Since: Sep, 2010
#34318: Dec 21st 2018 at 4:40:07 PM

Booo. Piccolo's youtube tutorial was great.

Saiga Since: Feb, 2011 Relationship Status: Getting away with murder
#34319: Dec 21st 2018 at 4:45:54 PM

[up][up] You specifically said for it to be destroyed like it was in the anime, which was colossal fucking stupidity on Goku's part.

Also Black/Zamasu attacking the time machine but not completely destroying it was also stupid.

Edited by Saiga on Dec 21st 2018 at 10:46:48 PM

unknowing from somewhere.. Since: Mar, 2014
#34320: Dec 21st 2018 at 4:46:16 PM

For what I get the fused zamasu was imperfect because evi l goku was not inmortal so it start screw around one he is destroy is wish of inmortality stick allow him to just spread around in the form of wallpaper zamasu and then goku ask zero and......that happen..

I still tramumatized over it, is a complete universe is just......is just fuck up men, really fuck up.

"My Name is Bolt, Bolt Crank and I dont care if you believe or not"
HandsomeRob Leader of the Holey Brotherhood from The land of broken records Since: Jan, 2015
Leader of the Holey Brotherhood
#34321: Dec 21st 2018 at 4:48:44 PM

[up][up]

Well yeah, but they repaired it. They just put the thing back together.

I mean, unless you're thinking that they left the tags in the jar, but I don't think they'd do that...then again, this is Goku.

But yeah, just fix the jar.

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Fedetropes Call me Blast, not Fedetropes from Doomed universe Since: Dec, 2016 Relationship Status: Shipping fictional characters
Call me Blast, not Fedetropes
#34322: Dec 21st 2018 at 4:50:42 PM

I don't mind the future timeline being erased (I prefer the anime version BTW) if Trunks had become a regular member of the cast, or even moved to universe 6 like someone suggested.

Or even canonize xenoverse and make him be picked up by the time patrol, just don't send him to an identical timeline as his destroyed one.

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#34323: Dec 21st 2018 at 4:54:06 PM

As I said, in the anime it shows Zen-O's power (being able to erase an incorporeal being that was spreading out to other timelines and dimensions by nuking an entire universe). In the manga, it shows his...callousness (he didn't actually need to destroy the entirety of Trunks' timeline because Zamasu had physical bodies that could have been taken out at once).

Yeah, but between the two, I prefer the callousness. It still shows his power by having him nuke an entire universe, but it also establishes how totally apathetic to people's lives he is. By this point, Goku's been told over and over to have nothing to do with Zen'o for fear that he might inadvertantly bring about the annihilation of the universe.

Up to this point, the expectation's been that maybe Goku will say something or do something that will make Zen'o destroy the universe out of spite. Or maybe he'll pick a fight like he does and then the ensuing collateral damage will destroy the universe. But here, we see the follow-through on why everyone keeps panicking around him.

It's not that Zen'o is mean. It's not that he's so powerful that if he fights Goku, the universe will pay the price. It's that he's so innocently apathetic to his creations that he might just solve a proposed problem by going, "Oh, look, I erased the universe. Now there's not a problem anymore."

Even when that is entirely uncalled for.

In the manga, Goku takes Zamasu as a Godzilla Threshold moment, asks Zen-o for help, and finds out exactly why he's been told not to do that because Zen-o's help is so much worse than the original problem was. Goku did a bad. In the anime, it legit is a Godzilla Threshold moment and Zen-o's erasure saves the multiverse; Goku did a good.

Between the two of them, "Goku did a bad" also segues better into the Tournament of Power, where Zen-o abruptly decides on a whim to wipe out most of the universes because ugh, there's so many and it's just the pits, you guys.

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HandsomeRob Leader of the Holey Brotherhood from The land of broken records Since: Jan, 2015
Leader of the Holey Brotherhood
#34324: Dec 21st 2018 at 4:59:26 PM

[up]

...well argued friend. Very well argued.

You know, looking at how the anime has softened Zen-O through what you mentioned and considering his closer association to the manga, along with some other things I sometimes wonder if Toriyama just likes writing jerks (or characters with as many bad character traits as possible).

Edited by HandsomeRob on Dec 21st 2018 at 6:04:21 AM

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TobiasDrake (•̀⤙•́) (Edited uphill both ways) Relationship Status: Arm chopping is not a love language!
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#34325: Dec 21st 2018 at 5:01:10 PM

Toriyama's characters have not exactly been on the Good side of the moral spectrum since as far back as that time when Bulma enslaved a sentient creature.

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