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VeryMelon Since: Jul, 2011 Relationship Status: Anime is my true love
#34251: Dec 21st 2018 at 1:07:34 PM

Cell versus Goku is not one I'd pick because it's literally just there to tease the actual fight between Cell and Gohan. Without the anime padding it out with some fighting choreography I doubt they'd have considered it.

randomness4 Ghost '11 from The Land of Inconvenience Since: Sep, 2011
Ghost '11
#34252: Dec 21st 2018 at 1:08:07 PM

[up][up][up]Extended action, PERFECT.

That's what it needs. Key moments don't mean much if that's all there are.

Which I suppose is a mindset of an anime only fan.

Edited by randomness4 on Dec 21st 2018 at 1:09:03 AM

Rules of the Internet 45. Rule 45 is a lie. Check out my art if you notice.
PushoverMediaCritic I'm sorry Tien, but I must go all out. from the Italy of America Since: Jul, 2015 Relationship Status: watch?v=dQw4w9WgXcQ
I'm sorry Tien, but I must go all out.
#34253: Dec 21st 2018 at 1:11:56 PM

Careful with that sarcasm, you might hurt somebody.

Heatth (X-Troper) Relationship Status: In Spades with myself
#34254: Dec 21st 2018 at 1:12:12 PM

What it has good fight choreography. There’s actual extended action.

You mean the Goku vs Cell? I don't really care. Ultimately, this is just a secondary concern for me. To me, a good fight is a fight that has a nice progression, a good sense of drama and a good conclusion. This fight have nothing of that. The quality of animation and choreography weights relatively little, specially in Dragon Ball where, even at its best, it is still kinda samey, as we were just discussing.

Also, to be clear, I judge all fights by the manga, because that is what I remember. I find the Dragon Ball anime to be, frankly, quite bad overall and I haven't subjected myself to watch all of it since I was 13 or something like that. That is another reason why I care little about "choreography" (though this can still be a factor in a well drawn manga).

Edited by Heatth on Dec 21st 2018 at 7:14:31 AM

slimcoder The Head of the Hydra Since: May, 2013
The Head of the Hydra
#34255: Dec 21st 2018 at 1:13:43 PM

Eh still it was some fun shit. tongue

"I am Alpharius. This is a lie."
randomness4 Ghost '11 from The Land of Inconvenience Since: Sep, 2011
Ghost '11
#34256: Dec 21st 2018 at 1:14:20 PM

Isn't it more samey when there's less happening? How much is happening differently before the signature attack comes out?

Rules of the Internet 45. Rule 45 is a lie. Check out my art if you notice.
Heatth (X-Troper) Relationship Status: In Spades with myself
#34257: Dec 21st 2018 at 1:17:42 PM

[up]I am not sure what you are talking about? Is that supposed to be a rebuttal to me? Because I never said anything about less things being best. My favorite fight is the Vegeta fight, and that one is quite long, which a lot of things happening.

Anyway, though I never said having less things happening is better, having more is not necessarely good either. Specially if it is filler. Having random stuff happen that ultimately doesn't matter doesn't help a fight or, really, a story. That is why filler is so maligned in the anime fandom. Because the anime ultimately will follow the manga, whatever it adds by necessity won't have an impact and, thus, will feel superfluous.

Kamiccolo Since: May, 2018
#34258: Dec 21st 2018 at 1:18:20 PM

Anyway, that Toriyama did create these techniques and then basically forgot about is another of his flaws. He creates an interesting thing and then simply doesn't think through about what it means. These abilities should, by all logic be factors to be considered in future fights, and could create more diversity, as they aren't "stronger person win" type things. Yet, they are never relevant again after their debut fights (I don't think Kuririn ever uses the Kienzan after Vegeta in the manga). I am almost amazed that Toriyama at least remember the Genkidama exists until the very end.
  • Krillin uses it against Freeza.

  • Vegeta uses it against Gohan.

  • Freeza uses it against Goku

It's used when it's useful. The thing about the Kienzan is that it's very slow and loud, to the point that people who can't sense ki have dodged it while their back is turned, so you're pretty much never going to hit anyone with it. As for those who can sense ki... Goku dodged a Kienzan thrown by final form Freeza (from behind) in his base form. He then mocked Freeza for "having to resort to a worthless technique like that."

Cell versus Goku is not one I'd pick because it's literally just there to tease the actual fight between Cell and Gohan. Without the anime padding it out with some fighting choreography I doubt they'd have considered it.
Considering that, bar the Warp Kamehameha, none of the moments they cited (like Goku and Cell blinking in and out, Cell using the Kienzan, Goku fighting four Cells, and Cell using the Makankosappotomas) were actually in the manga, probably.

Edited by Kamiccolo on Dec 21st 2018 at 1:23:51 AM

Yumil Mad Archivist Since: Mar, 2016
Mad Archivist
#34259: Dec 21st 2018 at 1:21:34 PM

Sooooo actually doing something with a character of the main cast of the show is pointless filler that does nothing but cater to their base and wastes time.

yeah that about sums up why I'm gonna have nothing to do with the manga. If the fights are shit, and doing character development to most of the characters is regarded as filler fanservice, why should I even read this ?

Edited by Yumil on Dec 21st 2018 at 10:23:12 AM

"when you stare too long into the abyss, Xehanort takes advantage of the distraction to break into your house and steal all your shit."
randomness4 Ghost '11 from The Land of Inconvenience Since: Sep, 2011
Ghost '11
#34260: Dec 21st 2018 at 1:22:35 PM

[up][up][up]I know why filler is dislike-ed. I don't see why an extended fight would be a bad thing...if the original was too short at least.

I think it would make the fights stand out more...or did, I don't remember if it actually was the case.

Edited by randomness4 on Dec 21st 2018 at 1:26:05 AM

Rules of the Internet 45. Rule 45 is a lie. Check out my art if you notice.
PushoverMediaCritic I'm sorry Tien, but I must go all out. from the Italy of America Since: Jul, 2015 Relationship Status: watch?v=dQw4w9WgXcQ
I'm sorry Tien, but I must go all out.
#34261: Dec 21st 2018 at 1:22:44 PM

Goku also uses it against Buutenks.

VeryMelon Since: Jul, 2011 Relationship Status: Anime is my true love
#34262: Dec 21st 2018 at 1:23:09 PM

I already said you should read the manga watch the anime. It REALLY doesn't matter which one you go with, so there's no need to keep asking for opinions.

Edited by VeryMelon on Dec 21st 2018 at 4:26:52 AM

Yumil Mad Archivist Since: Mar, 2016
Mad Archivist
#34263: Dec 21st 2018 at 1:24:24 PM

wait I thought you told me to watch the anime the last time.

But yeah at this point I'm not asking for opinion on which to watch, I'm asking what makes the manga worth reading then.

"when you stare too long into the abyss, Xehanort takes advantage of the distraction to break into your house and steal all your shit."
Moth13 Since: Sep, 2010
#34264: Dec 21st 2018 at 1:24:43 PM

Gee TFS, Goku vs. Freeza couldnt possibly be at the top of the list :V

This is almost the same order as their villain countdown.

I still think Goku vs Frieza is getting cut because of the abysmal pacing.

(I don't think Kuririn ever uses the Kienzan after Vegeta in the manga)

He cut off Frieza's tail!

Anyway, though I never said having less things happening is better, having more is not necessarely good either. Specially if it is filler. Having random stuff happen that ultimately doesn't matter doesn't help a fight or, really, a story.

I disagree. It can improve the pacing, flow, and variety of the fight. A lot of cool moments from the fights on this list that contributed to their inclusion are anime only moments.

unknowing from somewhere.. Since: Mar, 2014
#34265: Dec 21st 2018 at 1:26:48 PM

I will said the piccolo fight is when scaling stark to get silly as Piccolo can indeed destroy the world on is own.

Vegeta is when the scaling become almost planet buster, for then onward all baddies could break planets with ease.

Freezer broke the scaling because the heroes took repeating power up to beat him, maybe is true what people said about Freezer arc being the suposely last one in the series.

"My Name is Bolt, Bolt Crank and I dont care if you believe or not"
Kamiccolo Since: May, 2018
#34266: Dec 21st 2018 at 1:30:23 PM

Sooooo actually doing something with a character of the main cast of the show is pointless filler that does nothing but cater to their base and wastes time.
1. That's not "doing something", it's just running out the clock to preserve runtime.

2. Tenshinhan, Roshi, and Krillin are not main characters and haven't been for several arcs now. Ten's last big role was in the 23rd Budokai; he was around for five minutes in the Saiyan arc, got one-shotted by Nappa, and that was it for him. He did his job. Roshi retired at the 23rd Budokai, his arc complete. Krillin had his last big role on Namek.

yeah that about sums up why I'm gonna have nothing to do with the manga. If the fights are shit, and doing character development to most of the characters is regarded as filler fanservice,
Regression =/= development.

Edited by Kamiccolo on Dec 21st 2018 at 1:33:14 AM

Moth13 Since: Sep, 2010
#34267: Dec 21st 2018 at 1:31:09 PM

By the way, here's Gohan catching the Destructo Disks. They don't actually bounce off his skin. (same with Jiren)

Kamiccolo Since: May, 2018
#34268: Dec 21st 2018 at 1:32:05 PM

They totally bounce off Jiren's skin (or his glove I guess), he catches one and punches the others:

Edited by Kamiccolo on Dec 21st 2018 at 1:32:25 AM

Heatth (X-Troper) Relationship Status: In Spades with myself
#34269: Dec 21st 2018 at 1:32:57 PM

@randomness4,

Again, you know I didn't actually argue against extending fights, right? That can work but, usually, it doesn't. It doesn't because the anime staff rarely do anything other than to throw some flash moments to pad out for time. I don't care for fight scenes that serve no purpose other than look nice, and, to be frank, I rarely find a tv anime fight to look nice to begin with, specially in a long show such as DBZ.

The fact the fight itself was kinda pointless to begin with doesn't help at all. Unless you deliberately try to do something new, instead of just extending what is there, it will just make a bad situation worse.

He cut off Frieza's tail!

Oh yeah! It was pointless but it is nice to remember it wasn't forgotten immediately. Too bad Freeze regrew that (seriously, the pre final form fights are one of the most pointless things in all of DBZ).

It can improve the pacing, flow, and variety of the fight. A lot of cool moments from the fights on this list that contributed to their inclusion are anime only moments.

I will give variety but, again, DBZ still sucks at that anyway. And I really disagree that throwing pointless shit improves pacing. The manga pacing, though not perfect, is leagues above the anime. And, again, cool moments for the sake of cool moments, with no impact in the flow of the fight doesn't help at all in my opinion. I know this is not shared with a lot of people, including Team 4 Stars, but that is how I feel. A fight is not better to me just because it is longer and has pretty cool things happening.

Moth13 Since: Sep, 2010
#34270: Dec 21st 2018 at 1:33:33 PM

[up][up]He's punching the flat of the blades to shatter them, not the edges.

Heatth (X-Troper) Relationship Status: In Spades with myself
#34271: Dec 21st 2018 at 1:35:30 PM

Tenshinhan, Roshi, and Krillin are not main characters and haven't been for several arcs now. Ten's last big role was in the 23rd Budokai; he was around for five minutes in the Saiyan arc, got one-shotted by Nappa, and that was it for him. Roshi retired at the 23rd Budokai. Krillin had his last big role on Namek.

Eh, while I agree with your overall opinion on that concept, Kuririn still had a significant role in the Cell arc. I guess you can argue if it is a "big role", but at very least he was an important secondary character. He only stopped being that in the Buu arc. Ten got a cool moment too but, yeah, very minor.

Edited by Heatth on Dec 21st 2018 at 7:35:42 AM

slimcoder The Head of the Hydra Since: May, 2013
The Head of the Hydra
#34272: Dec 21st 2018 at 1:36:33 PM

[up]x8 Vegeta was never shown destroying a planet in the Saiyan Saga. That time he did it in the anime on the big planet is completely non-canon & is not evidence that he is one.

Frieza is the first person to have actually destroyed a planet because it was at that point when the power scaling went to Hell.

Edited by slimcoder on Dec 21st 2018 at 1:37:15 AM

"I am Alpharius. This is a lie."
fasoman1996 Google "big ears" from Argentina (A.K.A. Naziland) Since: Dec, 2014 Relationship Status: Baby don't hurt me!
Google "big ears"
#34273: Dec 21st 2018 at 1:37:26 PM

Remember that Krillin had the second biggest fuck-up in the Cell saga. Also, he was a big reason the cyborgs made a Heel–Face Turn.

Surprised that Gohan vs Cell is getting skipped but it does make sense why.

Uni cat
unknowing from somewhere.. Since: Mar, 2014
#34274: Dec 21st 2018 at 1:38:56 PM

[up][up]Im tkaing anime only since I haven read the manga and even by that time is kinda clear the power of the chararter can devastate the planet.

"It was a clever and satisfying way to use them."

Really? it feel if anything kind of insulting that chararter have being so irrelevant that that is cleaver for anothet to use that.

Edited by unknowing on Dec 21st 2018 at 5:39:15 AM

"My Name is Bolt, Bolt Crank and I dont care if you believe or not"
slimcoder The Head of the Hydra Since: May, 2013
The Head of the Hydra
#34275: Dec 21st 2018 at 1:40:42 PM

[up] When it comes to Vegeta bluster is just that, bluster.

I don’t trust a damn what Vegeta says because he is an arrogant tool.

Frieza I trust because he actually went out & did it.

And again the bug planet is a total filler arc. Shit like that is to be completely disregarded & never brought up.

Edited by slimcoder on Dec 21st 2018 at 1:41:34 AM

"I am Alpharius. This is a lie."

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