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unknowing from somewhere.. Since: Mar, 2014
#34151: Dec 20th 2018 at 4:30:05 PM

taking about anime I kinda give up on Super after Zaimasu wallpaper and a goku telling zero to DESTROY THE ENTIRE UNIVERSE.

I mean....hol y shit goku, YOU KILL AND ENTIRE UNIVERSE, like....the whole of it, all.....just all of it.

FUCK, even to this day im stick shock with that.

"My Name is Bolt, Bolt Crank and I dont care if you believe or not"
unnoun Since: Jan, 2012
#34152: Dec 20th 2018 at 4:33:52 PM

I mean, I'll give Toyotaro and others this, that makes no sense when the bombs were wished out.

She strikes me as the worst kind of stereotypical DB fan.

...Back to this, like.

I think we're just in different camps, because the worst and most stereotypical Dragon Ball fans to me are the ones obsessed with "consistent" power levels, and not the ones who genuinely give a shit about the characters, maybe differently from other people.

With Toriyama to hold her hand, and help her refine and revise things, I'd be hella interested in seeing that balance.

Toriyama constantly says and even seems to lament at times that he isn't good at writing romance, having someone interested in that aspect of the franchise, not necessarily her, write an actual fucking love story and then showing the draft to Toriyama and having him edit it for the characters being inconsistent or out of his vision sounds genuinely interesting to me. Worth doing, and it's a shame it hasn't happened before.

Kamiccolo Since: May, 2018
#34153: Dec 20th 2018 at 4:40:05 PM

I mean, blatant Misogyny aside,
Well now you're just making stuff up. My criticisms have nothing to do with her being female and everything to do with her writing being bad. She fits the common criticisms I've heard of Toyotaro being more of a fan than a writer than Toyotaro himself does, imo.
Toriyama sorta basically does the same with Bardock in Minus. Ish.
Yeah, and it was bad there too. Pretty universally panned, actually. But even then... Bardock was still an unrepentant murderer, at least.
And beyond that Toriyama responds to her in that interview without a lot of judgement.
Toriyama's a pretty "meh, whatever" kind of dude, but he still seemed to throw the tiniest bit of shade on her (e.g. "You really like Bardock, don’t you, Ooishi-san? But unfortunately, Bardock has been dead for quite some time, so you probably won’t be able to see him in action except in stories of the past... by this point, his battle power isn’t high enough").
but isnt the Anime Episode of Bardock way different from her original Manga version?

Didn't it soften Bardock more by comparison? That's what I'd heard.

Not... really.
I think we're just in different camps, because the worst and most stereotypical Dragon Ball fans to me are the ones obsessed with "consistent" power levels, and not the ones who genuinely give a shit about the characters, maybe differently from other people.
Guess it's just a difference of opinion then.

I, personally, think the worst type of DB fan is one who inherently misunderstands who these characters actually are and wants to write them differently than their actual personalities... more like the stereotypical anime characters that Toriyama himself subverts and mocks. I don't think they know, at its core, what this series is supposed to be. The kind that seem more influenced by the various comics and shows that were inspired by DB, rather than DB itself.

Since apprently toyotaro unironically wrote that attacks that exploits openings aren't true strength,
Toyotaro didn't say that, Jiren said that. Which is pretty relevant to his character, actually.

Edited by Kamiccolo on Dec 20th 2018 at 4:41:11 AM

slimcoder The Head of the Hydra Since: May, 2013
The Head of the Hydra
#34154: Dec 20th 2018 at 4:41:17 PM

[up][up][up] It wasn’t really his idea to destroy the universe nor did he ever tell Zeno to destroy the universe. That’s downright false.

He just called in Zeno assuming that as an all-powerful God he might have a solution for a problem they can’t punch out.

He simply never expected Zeno’s solution to be wiping out the entire universe from existence.

So it’s not Goku’s fault really.

Edited by slimcoder on Dec 20th 2018 at 4:42:38 AM

"I am Alpharius. This is a lie."
Yumil Mad Archivist Since: Mar, 2016
Mad Archivist
#34155: Dec 20th 2018 at 4:45:04 PM

Doesn't really change the phrase wasn't written to be a complete joke from the get go, which is already pretty bad.

also I'm reading the blog further and I kinda have to agree that oh woaw 18's big fight is lame. Like woaw. I don't know if the anime's better, but I'm certainly not taking 46 chapters of that already. i'd rather marathon the entirety of 4kids's Yugioh.

Edited by Yumil on Dec 20th 2018 at 1:47:12 PM

"when you stare too long into the abyss, Xehanort takes advantage of the distraction to break into your house and steal all your shit."
VeryMelon Since: Jul, 2011 Relationship Status: Anime is my true love
#34156: Dec 20th 2018 at 4:49:14 PM

Yumil, just watch the anime. It really doesn't matter, and I say this as someone who thinks the manga and anime are bad.

unknowing from somewhere.. Since: Mar, 2014
#34157: Dec 20th 2018 at 4:52:22 PM

[up][up][up]It is still pretty fucking horrifying, a awfull way to end a arc(it pretty much set everything pointless) and no one really react with horror, it was just so....horrifying.

Edited by unknowing on Dec 20th 2018 at 8:52:38 AM

"My Name is Bolt, Bolt Crank and I dont care if you believe or not"
Moth13 Since: Sep, 2010
#34158: Dec 20th 2018 at 4:54:41 PM

I think the manga is worse than the anime, but I think it's worth reading because it does things differently than the anime and it can be cool to see two completely different takes on the same story. Things like the Zeno Expo being a match between the Gods of Destruction, or the Merged Zamasu fight being completely different is interesting to me. Of course, I really don't like how it handles things like the Hit fights or Kefla fight, so it's a mixed bag for sure.

PushoverMediaCritic I'm sorry Tien, but I must go all out. from the Italy of America Since: Jul, 2015 Relationship Status: watch?v=dQw4w9WgXcQ
I'm sorry Tien, but I must go all out.
#34159: Dec 20th 2018 at 4:54:54 PM

This is how 18 and Ribrianne's fight ended in the anime:

Zeromaeus Since: May, 2010
#34160: Dec 20th 2018 at 4:55:37 PM

I mean, if you like Dragon Ball, you'll probably get something out of it if you watch or read it. Just don't expect it to be better than anything else. I personally find it easier to watch/read than a lot of its modern contemporaries.

unnoun Since: Jan, 2012
#34161: Dec 20th 2018 at 4:56:00 PM

Well now you're just making stuff up. My criticisms have nothing to do with her being female and everything to do with her writing being bad. She fits the common criticisms I've heard of Toyotaro being more of a fan than a writer than Toyotaro himself does, imo.

You didn't have to say it was because she was a woman. The stuff about misunderstanding the characters and making Bardock a Tsundere was pretty blatant about what you meant, dude. Textbook dogwhistle.

Not... really.

Could have sworn it did.

I mean, Episode of Bardock. Super Saiyan.

That uses footage from the anime version, not her manga.

I guess the basic core plot is the same, ish, and she's responsible for it, but like.

more like the stereotypical anime characters that Toriyama himself subverts and mocks

Stereotypical anime barely existed before Toriyama, but go off I guess.

Moth13 Since: Sep, 2010
#34162: Dec 20th 2018 at 5:01:10 PM

Anyway, Goku vs Beerus rules. That moment when Goku shouts "I will not let you destroy my world!!!" and goes Super Saiyan out of that pile of rocks as the insert song starts playing is just... Mwah!

Yumil Mad Archivist Since: Mar, 2016
Mad Archivist
#34163: Dec 20th 2018 at 5:04:58 PM

[up][up][up]Yeah but like the thing is, I never really cared much for dragon ball before going on a binge and watching the entirety of DBZ abridged three months ago. Up until now, i read the entirety of the manga twice years ago, and it never meant anything to me besides general knowledge because I had zero emotionnal attachement to it. then I watched the abridged and suddenly the final flash and the father-son kamehameha were the next best things for me thirty years after everyone.

I've seen people argue that the original manga was better at internal consistency than people are giving it credit for, but to be honest, DBZ could be crap at handling power levels in the manga too and I wouldn't think differently of it either. I'm very much the kind of guy that takes engaging characters and good story beats over internal consistency. And something I've seen on the blog and that it doesn't seem to have made up is that toyotaro seems fairly obsessed with internal consistency. But the thing is, DBZ didn't let that stop him from making a good story. Toyotaro seem to not get when to stop.

Edited by Yumil on Dec 20th 2018 at 2:05:21 PM

"when you stare too long into the abyss, Xehanort takes advantage of the distraction to break into your house and steal all your shit."
slimcoder The Head of the Hydra Since: May, 2013
The Head of the Hydra
#34164: Dec 20th 2018 at 5:05:05 PM

[up]x7 That is all true.

Buuuuut it was not Goku’s fault that the universe was destroyed....... no more than anyone else.

Edited by slimcoder on Dec 20th 2018 at 5:05:31 AM

"I am Alpharius. This is a lie."
unnoun Since: Jan, 2012
#34165: Dec 20th 2018 at 5:05:35 PM

Anyway, just fundamentally, Ooishi could be the worst Dragon Ball writer ever, I like her art better than Toyotaro's, and I think, on a basic level, if Toriyama is going to try to collaborate and provide input in the manga anyway, then the writer who is drastically different from him is fundamentally more interesting than the one constantly trying to copy him.

Maybe it'd be a disaster and a train wreck, but it might be an interesting one.

I think the manga is worse than the anime, but I think it's worth reading because it does things differently than the anime and it can be cool to see two completely different takes on the same story. Things like the Zeno Expo being a match between the Gods of Destruction, or the Merged Zamasu fight being completely different is interesting to me. Of course, I really don't like how it handles things like the Hit fights or Kefla fight, so it's a mixed bag for sure.

Anyway, Goku vs Beerus rules. That moment when Goku shouts "I will not let you destroy my world!!!" and goes Super Saiyan out of that pile of rocks as the insert song starts playing is just... Mwah!

Agreed with all this, basically.

Moth, you're my new favorite

PushoverMediaCritic I'm sorry Tien, but I must go all out. from the Italy of America Since: Jul, 2015 Relationship Status: watch?v=dQw4w9WgXcQ
I'm sorry Tien, but I must go all out.
#34166: Dec 20th 2018 at 5:09:33 PM

[up][up][up]What'd you think of the 18 vs Ribrianne anime finale?

[up]I've liked some things in the Super manga, like the God of Destruction free-for-all and the Caulifla/Freeza fight. I just don't like most of it.

Edited by PushoverMediaCritic on Dec 20th 2018 at 6:11:32 AM

Yumil Mad Archivist Since: Mar, 2016
Mad Archivist
#34167: Dec 20th 2018 at 5:13:50 PM

I mean, I have zero buildup towards it, so I'm kinda neutral toward it, but I also thought that the limit over accel synchro was comical by sheer amount of narm (judge for yourself [1])- And then I watched the rest of 5D's up to that point and when it did happened on screen I was bursting every single nut at the same time and dubbing it the second coming of the tengen toppa gurren lagann, so the fact it reminds me of that situation at all is a pretty good sign to me.

Edited by Yumil on Dec 20th 2018 at 2:18:24 PM

"when you stare too long into the abyss, Xehanort takes advantage of the distraction to break into your house and steal all your shit."
unknowing from somewhere.. Since: Mar, 2014
#34168: Dec 20th 2018 at 5:22:00 PM

" no more than anyone else."

Maybe but is stil something of is fault by invoing Zero, and the lack of remorse over is just.....

Also Im in the opinion that Mirai trhunk should have being part of regular cast after that but that is just me.

"My Name is Bolt, Bolt Crank and I dont care if you believe or not"
Deadpoolrocks Since: Sep, 2010
#34169: Dec 20th 2018 at 5:23:43 PM

Think tfs is gonna put any more of super in their top 4 or are we done with post z fights probably? I'm guessing the rest are just gonna be db or dbz.

unnoun Since: Jan, 2012
#34170: Dec 20th 2018 at 5:25:03 PM

Does Toyotaro also imply Chi-Chi went to a hospital to give birth? Because I don't believe that.

The Sons probably don't have insurance, and they're hicks. They probably have some backwoods mountain midwife.

Also, wow, this is a damn fine point.

Why did Toriyama want to bring Krillin and Tien and Roshi and then not tell Toei what to do with them? I didn't see that interview with the anime director, but. Wow.

Edited by unnoun on Dec 20th 2018 at 8:28:08 AM

slimcoder The Head of the Hydra Since: May, 2013
The Head of the Hydra
#34171: Dec 20th 2018 at 5:29:26 PM

[up][up][up] It was either Zeno or they die.

Calling Zeno wasn’t just the most logical choice of action, it was literally the only choice they had.

Can you think of any other solution? No because at that point Zamasu was fucking invincible, only God could handle him & he did.

Also not just you, many people including I share the opinion of Future Trunks joining the main cast at that point.

Edited by slimcoder on Dec 20th 2018 at 5:30:17 AM

"I am Alpharius. This is a lie."
Moth13 Since: Sep, 2010
#34172: Dec 20th 2018 at 5:31:52 PM

Aw thanks unnoun. You've always been one of my favorite posters here, so I appreciate that.

Anyway, my guess for the final four is Everyone vs Nappa, Everyone vs Vegeta, one of the Piccolo fights (I haven't read Piccolo Jr. in a while so I forget which one is better) and round it out with Vegito vs Buuhan because of my wishful thinking. Not sure of the order except that the Vegeta fight is probably Number 1.

Edited by Moth13 on Dec 20th 2018 at 8:35:15 AM

HandsomeRob Leader of the Holey Brotherhood from The land of broken records Since: Jan, 2015
Leader of the Holey Brotherhood
#34173: Dec 20th 2018 at 5:47:20 PM

Why did Toriyama want to bring Krillin and Tien and Roshi and then not tell Toei what to do with them? I didn't see that interview with the anime director, but. Wow.

So we have confirmation he chose them himself then? It's odd that he didn't outright say why they were there. While I've never agreed with how he's used some characters, there's always at least been some purpose to them being there (like Yamcha, Tien and Chiaotzu all dying to show how bad the situation is getting).

I mean, we all know he just didn't want to use Goten, Trunks and Buu, but why? Does he not like them? It seems like he just threw the humans in there and said to everyone do what you want.

One Strip! One Strip!
HandsomeRob Leader of the Holey Brotherhood from The land of broken records Since: Jan, 2015
Leader of the Holey Brotherhood
#34175: Dec 20th 2018 at 6:11:03 PM

Both are ridiculous. I refuse to take sides.

In fact, from now on whenever someone tries to claim that the anime or manga is worse than the other I'll just say this:

Dragon Ball did not need any sequels that didn't use new characters. We've done all we can with Goku and company. It was time for a new generation. But Toriyama showed us with Gohan that he wasn't willing to do that, and backtracked, and now he's just continuing on with the guys who're already so strong that it's becoming a struggle to come up with new opponents for them.

As long as the series clings to Goku, by it's own creators insistence, even at it's absolute best, Dragonball is going to be seriously flawed.

One Strip! One Strip!

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