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Kamiccolo Since: May, 2018
#34126: Dec 20th 2018 at 3:13:00 PM

The Beerus battle is emblematic of all the problems with Super's fights. It's totally sterile and weightless, just lots of flashing lights and pulsating blasts with no clear sense of progression.

Edited by Kamiccolo on Dec 20th 2018 at 3:13:06 AM

unnoun Since: Jan, 2012
#34127: Dec 20th 2018 at 3:15:53 PM

They still aged, though. Like, yeah, they look like kids, but they aged, noticeably.

Not really? I can barely tell the difference between them at the 21st and 22nd, 3 years and later.

Goku at about 16 was the same age as Gohan in the Buu Saga, and half as tall, if that.

Kamiccolo Since: May, 2018
#34128: Dec 20th 2018 at 3:35:23 PM

On the matter of Super's characters never changing, it's worth noting that while multi-year time-skips were frequent in the original run, all of Super's arcs take place over the span of about two years. We start with a roughly five year time skip after Buu; then we get Beerus; then 10 months later Freeza shows up; then immediately after, still in the same year with no noted big time skip, Zamasu starts causing trouble and that whole arc happens; then 9 months or so pass (enough for Bulma to carry to term) and the TOP happens; then immediately after they meet Broly; then a few weeks later they have to deal with GOAT. A detail in the latest manga chapter indicates that 3 Super story arcs (TOP, Broly, Moro) take place over the course of about 2 months (Buu falls asleep, to wake up in 2 months, at the start of the TOP arc, and is still not done sleeping by the newest arc; Goku also talks about the TOP and the encounter with Broly as if they just happened). Pan does not look noticeably different from ROF to now despite being a newborn then.

The timeline got really compressed out of nowhere.

unnoun Since: Jan, 2012
#34129: Dec 20th 2018 at 3:41:29 PM

Gohan still changed more than Goten and Ttunks seem to over the same period

Gohan during Raditz, during the androids, and after just a year in the ROSAT are all noticeably different.

Goten and Trunks absolutely skipped that last one.

Kamiccolo Since: May, 2018
#34130: Dec 20th 2018 at 3:42:33 PM

There's like six years between Raditz and the Androids. But yeah Goten and Trunks (and Maron) are clearly just remaining static out of laziness and a dislike of change.

Edited by Kamiccolo on Dec 20th 2018 at 3:43:13 AM

PushoverMediaCritic I'm sorry Tien, but I must go all out. from the Italy of America Since: Jul, 2015 Relationship Status: watch?v=dQw4w9WgXcQ
I'm sorry Tien, but I must go all out.
#34131: Dec 20th 2018 at 3:43:19 PM

This is why I didn't want to debate this (also because it's off-topic for the DBZA thread).

There's a really good Tumblr blog called Dragon Ball Meta, and they explain all this much better than I do.

Here's a list of all the posts made about the DBS manga, in reverse chronological order, 'cause that's how Tumblr do.

alekos23 Since: Mar, 2013
#34132: Dec 20th 2018 at 3:43:27 PM

Eo Z approaching is so spooky it turned Marron into a toddler. tongue

Heatth (X-Troper) Relationship Status: In Spades with myself
#34133: Dec 20th 2018 at 3:44:13 PM

@unnoun,

There is actually a panel in both tournaments which show it very clearly. When they are dressing up the kame gi. Goku in particular has the same pose in both and the difference is clear. He is taller and have a smaller head, proportionally. Again, it is not terribly consistent, but Toriyama was adjusting his style and character design, showing passage of time.

[up][up]Their fault for not using tags. They are basically the best thing in Tumblr and allow for chronological viewing.

Edited by Heatth on Dec 20th 2018 at 9:47:35 AM

unnoun Since: Jan, 2012
#34134: Dec 20th 2018 at 3:46:54 PM

Yeah, I definitely don't like Toyotaro art-wise.

Toei's visuals for Super aren't always good themselves though.

Kamiccolo Since: May, 2018
#34135: Dec 20th 2018 at 3:49:01 PM

Since your feelings on Toyotaro are quite clear, who would you have replace him as the writer and artist of the Super manga?

I liked Naho Ooishi.

Wow, tossed right into the trash on literally the first four words. That's some kind of record, even for Tumblr!

And lol the sheer amount of reaching and desperation in that blog. Of course 17's death being a fake out was "damage control", it couldn't be that "removing their bombs removed their self-destruction ability" was blatantly obvious both to 18 and to everyone reading.

Edited by Kamiccolo on Dec 20th 2018 at 3:52:49 AM

Heatth (X-Troper) Relationship Status: In Spades with myself
#34136: Dec 20th 2018 at 3:51:44 PM

@Kamiccolo,

That all of Super so far happen in a span of 1 or 2 years is, in itself, a mark against it in my book. Again, that is the one thing I think Dragon Ball did well, in comparison to every other similar story: it allowed time to pass, and showed it reflect in the characters. If Super had multiple unrelated arcs without a single timeskip, that is still bad, I think.

Edited by Heatth on Dec 20th 2018 at 9:52:08 AM

PushoverMediaCritic I'm sorry Tien, but I must go all out. from the Italy of America Since: Jul, 2015 Relationship Status: watch?v=dQw4w9WgXcQ
I'm sorry Tien, but I must go all out.
#34137: Dec 20th 2018 at 3:52:19 PM

[up][up][up][up]That is the tag. I mean, I searched for the tag instead of just clicking on it, because I'm a goober, but this is the list of posts with the tag.

By "reverse chronological" I meant "most recent to oldest, going backwards in time".

[up][up]Seriously? What's wrong with Naho Ooishi?

Edited by PushoverMediaCritic on Dec 20th 2018 at 4:53:33 AM

Heatth (X-Troper) Relationship Status: In Spades with myself
#34138: Dec 20th 2018 at 3:54:10 PM

[up]Oh. Then you can just put a /chrono in the end of the url and it will show chronologically.

Kamiccolo Since: May, 2018
#34139: Dec 20th 2018 at 3:54:38 PM

[up][up][up]Yeah, Super only time-skips when it absolutely has to in order to keep everything samey and marketable. I suspect the only reason even months passed between Beerus/Freeza and Zamasu/TOP is because the plot required the bare minimum of time they allowed to pass (the Dragon Balls recharging, Freeza training, and Bulma getting pregnant).

[up][up]Her art is slowly produced and "meh", and she doesn't understand the series at all. Read her interview with Toriyama where she gushes about Bardock, asks if Toriyama will bring him back, and proceeds to write a story characterizing him as her Tsundere dreamboat instead of a psychopathic thuggish murderer and Villain Protagonist cum Tragic Hero. She strikes me as the worst kind of stereotypical DB fan.

Edited by Kamiccolo on Dec 20th 2018 at 4:00:37 AM

PushoverMediaCritic I'm sorry Tien, but I must go all out. from the Italy of America Since: Jul, 2015 Relationship Status: watch?v=dQw4w9WgXcQ
I'm sorry Tien, but I must go all out.
#34140: Dec 20th 2018 at 3:56:38 PM

[up][up]Ah, I did not know that. Here's a link to the tag on the blog in chronological order.

Edited by PushoverMediaCritic on Dec 20th 2018 at 4:56:52 AM

unnoun Since: Jan, 2012
#34141: Dec 20th 2018 at 4:04:41 PM

...I also disagree with some tumblr users about specific things like 18's emotional showing and. I'll be honest, it feels shitty and ableist?

When a character thing is how they dont feel human, having the big dramatic tearful reaction because she's a woman is. No?

Like, I know people who have a flat affect, and don't always visibly react the way they should, and.

I dunno, people being mad about it, even 18's supposed "fans" pissed me off. I know what it's like to be dying inside and it not show, and the idea that emotions have to be this theatric production to be real or valid is shit. Monstrous, even.

...Of course, the thing where she knew it was fake all along, while it makes more sense because of continuity and Krillin wishing it away, it also cheapened what I liked about the initial subdued reaction, so I honestly agree with them there, that it feels like a cheap "take backsies" or whatever.

Cowardly.

...I think the anticlimax of 17 getting up at the very end is a little funny, but I still absolutely love the 17, Goku and Freeza interactions and teamwork fight better.

Kamiccolo Since: May, 2018
#34142: Dec 20th 2018 at 4:07:44 PM

I liked the "17 emerges from the rubble" ending better, both because it's funnier and better thought out, and because "we win by hiding one of our own from the enemy because Jiren's just too fucking powerful" is a novel way to end the fight.

Edited by Kamiccolo on Dec 20th 2018 at 4:11:25 AM

PushoverMediaCritic I'm sorry Tien, but I must go all out. from the Italy of America Since: Jul, 2015 Relationship Status: watch?v=dQw4w9WgXcQ
I'm sorry Tien, but I must go all out.
#34143: Dec 20th 2018 at 4:09:30 PM

[up][up]You mention "ableist". As someone with Asperger's, I thought 17 and 18's shared character arc in the anime Tournament of Power was incredibly well-done and relatable. That made it clear that they do love each other and their respective families, it's just hard for them to connect on a human level and be emotionally open and honest, and I felt that HARD.

Edited by PushoverMediaCritic on Dec 20th 2018 at 5:09:58 AM

slimcoder The Head of the Hydra Since: May, 2013
The Head of the Hydra
#34144: Dec 20th 2018 at 4:11:04 PM

Who the Hell is Naho Ooishi?

"I am Alpharius. This is a lie."
Kamiccolo Since: May, 2018
#34145: Dec 20th 2018 at 4:13:16 PM

Fan artist turned Shueisha Jump manga artist who draws third-stringer DB spin-offs like the Episode of Bardock manga, the Yo! Goku and his Friends Return!!!' manga, the promotional chibi Broly manga, and the ongoing comedic chibization Dragon Ball SD.

PushoverMediaCritic I'm sorry Tien, but I must go all out. from the Italy of America Since: Jul, 2015 Relationship Status: watch?v=dQw4w9WgXcQ
I'm sorry Tien, but I must go all out.
#34146: Dec 20th 2018 at 4:14:05 PM

She did the Yo! Son Goku and his Friends Return! manga and she also make Dragon Ball SD, which stands for Super-Deformed. SD is basically an official Abridged series.

Yumil Mad Archivist Since: Mar, 2016
Mad Archivist
#34147: Dec 20th 2018 at 4:18:23 PM

m'eh, I've read two pages of the blog, and although I get the feeling there's some pretty good points made that I'd love someone to argue about more calmaly, this is just becoming one big steamroller bias against another at this point.

Edited by Yumil on Dec 20th 2018 at 1:19:34 PM

"when you stare too long into the abyss, Xehanort takes advantage of the distraction to break into your house and steal all your shit."
unnoun Since: Jan, 2012
#34148: Dec 20th 2018 at 4:20:26 PM

Her art is slowly produced and "meh", and she doesn't understand the series at all. Read her interview with Toriyama where she gushes about Bardock, asks if Toriyama will bring him back, and proceeds to write a story characterizing him as her Tsundere dreamboat instead of a psychopathic thuggish murderer and Villain Protagonist cum Tragic Hero. She strikes me as the worst kind of stereotypical DB fan.

...I mean, blatant Misogyny aside, (sidenote:WOW! holy shit, dude,) Toriyama sorta basically does the same with Bardock in Minus. Ish.

And beyond that Toriyama responds to her in that interview without a lot of judgement.

I guess that can be Japan's politeness culture, but. Like Toriyama's thrown shade at DB Evolution before.

...Also, I could be wrong, but isnt the Anime Episode of Bardock way different from her original Manga version?

Didn't it soften Bardock more by comparison? That's what I'd heard.

And, more than any of that. Like, Toyotaro is desperate for Toriyama Senpai's advice and his cock it reads pretty blatant in every interview and afterward.

Toriyama is somewhat collaborative with Toyotaro, and his advice is, apparently, constantly, to ease up and relax and not to be so afraid to be a little more 'sloppy'.

Someone with a different take on Dragon Ball, a different perspective or interpretation on the characters, in a similar collaboration-ish with Toriyama, to me, that sounds more worthwhile than the thirsty otaku fanboy.

It would at least give Super an identity, which both versions of it desperately needed.

Instead of "trying to be dragon ball and failing".

it's just hard for them to connect on a human level and be emotionally open and honest, and I felt that HARD.

I mean, I've been diagonosed with autism and other shit, and I agree with you on the general arc, but 18's waterworks when 17 faked blowing his load seemed more like it was because she was a woman and women cry.

PushoverMediaCritic I'm sorry Tien, but I must go all out. from the Italy of America Since: Jul, 2015 Relationship Status: watch?v=dQw4w9WgXcQ
I'm sorry Tien, but I must go all out.
#34149: Dec 20th 2018 at 4:23:09 PM

In the anime, 17 wasn't faking. He had every intention of dying, and only survived due to pure luck.

I agree with your take comparing the two mangakas.

Edited by PushoverMediaCritic on Dec 20th 2018 at 5:25:26 AM

Yumil Mad Archivist Since: Mar, 2016
Mad Archivist
#34150: Dec 20th 2018 at 4:28:41 PM

Yeah nah reading the blog in chronological order this time there's a criticism of the manga that seems pretty coherent with what I've seen so far is that the manga is making everything about raw strength. Since apprently toyotaro unironically wrote that attacks that exploits openings aren't true strength, I'm not exactly down for reading any of that either.

Edited by Yumil on Dec 20th 2018 at 1:28:50 PM

"when you stare too long into the abyss, Xehanort takes advantage of the distraction to break into your house and steal all your shit."

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