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Fedetropes Call me Blast, not Fedetropes from Doomed universe Since: Dec, 2016 Relationship Status: Shipping fictional characters
Call me Blast, not Fedetropes
#34101: Dec 20th 2018 at 1:06:06 PM

[up][up][up]I mean, I do agree that the manga has bad characterization (at least in regards to Goku) but you didn't need to be a jerk about it

Edited by Fedetropes on Dec 20th 2018 at 6:06:45 AM

¡PONLE QUE DIGA!:"¡HUMONGOSAURIO HASTA LA MUERTE!"
Saiga Since: Feb, 2011 Relationship Status: Getting away with murder
#34102: Dec 20th 2018 at 1:07:59 PM

"Better understands the characters" pfft, what a joke. That's such bullshit that it's not even worth debating.

If that's the case, don't even make a comment. This is in extremely poor form.

[up] I didn't say it was good, I said it was better. Goku's characterization is clearly being pushed hard by Toriyama's right now, just look at the latest movie

I also can't think of an example of his characterization from the manga that doesn't also appear in the anime, so can you elaborate?

The anime has exaggerated his stupidity much more, like him forgetting the senzu beans in the Future Trunks arc. It's also exaggerated the selfishness of him a lot more, like his behaviour at the start of the TOP arc (another thing that didn't get followed through with)

Edited by Saiga on Dec 20th 2018 at 7:11:32 PM

TobiasDrake (•̀⤙•́) (Edited uphill both ways) Relationship Status: Arm chopping is not a love language!
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#34103: Dec 20th 2018 at 1:16:05 PM

Do you recommend the manga? I gave up the anime once I figured out the pacing was as atrocious as the original and stuff I've been hearing since didn't do much to convince me I made a bad decision. Still, I get curious sometimes and I seem to agree with a lot of your thoughts on Dragon Ball so I am curious. Would you recommend the manga for a lapsed fan?

I do. I gave up on the Super anime during the Resurrection of F arc when they brought back Captain Motherf*cking Ginyu ('cause Toei's gonna Toei), though I was already kinda sour on it from other ridiculous Toei bits. Like. There's an episode where Goten and Trunks are nearly eaten by a random Earth snake, which should tell you all you need to know about the anime.

But I've kept pace with the manga easily enough and without losing interest.

I've heard things about the Super anime here and there, but none of what I've heard has ever actually made me interested to pick it up again. Additions like Blue Kaioken or Trunks spontaneously knowing the Genki-Dama or Buu having a new super form that never gets used just sound like yet more of Toei being Toei.

Edited by TobiasDrake on Dec 20th 2018 at 2:18:25 AM

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Saiga Since: Feb, 2011 Relationship Status: Getting away with murder
#34104: Dec 20th 2018 at 1:19:07 PM

Yeah outside of the retellings you have neatly missed out on the worst parts of the anime.

slimcoder The Head of the Hydra Since: May, 2013
The Head of the Hydra
#34105: Dec 20th 2018 at 1:19:57 PM

Super's pacing improves after the Resurrection F Arc if solely by virtue of not retreading the movies anymore. After that though your heading into new territory.

Goku's character is a big issue as well especially since they appear to be doing something with stupidity and selfishness but don't in the end. Like how at first he may have been responsible for the TOP but a couple episodes later its "no he gave the universes a fighting chance" making him being a selfish ass rather pointless aside from antagonizing all the universes like a moron.

Edited by slimcoder on Dec 20th 2018 at 1:20:35 AM

"I am Alpharius. This is a lie."
Fedetropes Call me Blast, not Fedetropes from Doomed universe Since: Dec, 2016 Relationship Status: Shipping fictional characters
Call me Blast, not Fedetropes
#34106: Dec 20th 2018 at 1:21:46 PM

X4[up]it's mostly how he seems to treat his son Gohan (in the anime...at least early on, he was more supportive of him choosing to study over fighting while in the manga he is an asshole to him, like wow).

In the super manga there's also the "gets lectured by Roshi about martial arts because he is suddenly dumb about that"

I didn't have a problem with his characterization in the new movie aside from letting Freeza go.

It kinda feels like Fanon Goku, Anime Super! Goku also feels like that, but there's something about him that makes him more bearable, I Don't know why though.

So they're both bad to me, but manga Goku more so

Edited by Fedetropes on Dec 20th 2018 at 6:23:00 AM

¡PONLE QUE DIGA!:"¡HUMONGOSAURIO HASTA LA MUERTE!"
BlackYakuzu94 CHADhan Player. from Easy Coast/NY Since: May, 2013 Relationship Status: Longing for my OTP
CHADhan Player.
#34107: Dec 20th 2018 at 1:26:37 PM

At the end of the day, current Goku is the result of Toriyama trying to "correct" him.

Hilariously, everyone hates Toei for "ruining" Goku when they're just following Toriyama's outline. Toei were the ones who softened Goku up to begin with in the original Anime. Irony

A lazy millennial who's good at what he does.
slimcoder The Head of the Hydra Since: May, 2013
The Head of the Hydra
#34108: Dec 20th 2018 at 1:30:04 PM

At the end of the day we all know Superman is the better character anyway. tongue

"I am Alpharius. This is a lie."
TheMageofFire Since: May, 2012
#34109: Dec 20th 2018 at 1:32:29 PM

When written right yeah, can't argue that.

BlackYakuzu94 CHADhan Player. from Easy Coast/NY Since: May, 2013 Relationship Status: Longing for my OTP
CHADhan Player.
#34110: Dec 20th 2018 at 1:37:35 PM

Remember ALLY OF GOOD tho.

But Goku can be great character too, he's just written by a guy who can't remember every detail since he finished the series 30 years ago.

A lazy millennial who's good at what he does.
TobiasDrake (•̀⤙•́) (Edited uphill both ways) Relationship Status: Arm chopping is not a love language!
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#34111: Dec 20th 2018 at 1:41:00 PM

I like Goku as a guy who has a conscience but isn't necessarily governed by it. He likes a good fight and has a bad habit of thinking with his punch-boner instead of his head, but he also doesn't like people getting hurt.

So, like, if Goku sees a mugging happening in his vicinity, he'll probably go lend a hand to that poor guy and punch some fools. But he's not going to go out of his way flying around the world looking for injustices to correct; he has training to do.

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Fedetropes Call me Blast, not Fedetropes from Doomed universe Since: Dec, 2016 Relationship Status: Shipping fictional characters
Call me Blast, not Fedetropes
#34112: Dec 20th 2018 at 1:42:16 PM

That's essentially how he is described in one of the scenes of the super anime...by himself

¡PONLE QUE DIGA!:"¡HUMONGOSAURIO HASTA LA MUERTE!"
Yumil Mad Archivist Since: Mar, 2016
Mad Archivist
#34113: Dec 20th 2018 at 1:46:03 PM

"Better understands the characters" pfft, what a joke. That's such bullshit that it's not even worth debating.
Yeah honestly if you're not gonna debate about it then just don't make a condescending remark about it either. i've yet to watch super and am still deciding whether to go with the manga or the anime and so far of what i've read you've been very adamant in your hate of toyotaro but have done nothing to explain it, so if you've got points against toyotaro you want to make, go ahead, you've got an audience. But don't half ass it by making that kind of post.

"when you stare too long into the abyss, Xehanort takes advantage of the distraction to break into your house and steal all your shit."
Heatth (X-Troper) Relationship Status: In Spades with myself
#34114: Dec 20th 2018 at 1:47:54 PM

Super's pacing improves after the Resurrection F Arc if solely by virtue of not retreading the movies anymore. After that though your heading into new territory.

That they spent a whole season worth of episodes retelling 1,5h movies was one of the most grating things, yeah. But, mostly, I just realized that Toei clearly didn't give enough of a fuck. Now they are no longer bound to the weekly manga pacing, they could have tried to improve and spend less time padding or adding inane scenes. But, nope, still the same old, except this time there was no excuse.

@Tobias and Saiga,

Thanks, I think I will give the manga a chance. I won't be expecting much but I trust it won't be a complete waste.

Too bad that, to my knowledge, the manga doesn't fix one of the things that bother me the most about Super: Goten and Trunks age. Might be a silly thing, but that is genuinely one of the things I respect the most about Dragon Ball: time passes and people age. With time I come to think most of everything Dragon Ball did, some other fighting shonen did better. But nothing else has the time progression. Some, like Naruto and One Piece do have a big time skip to have the characters age, but Dragon Ball didn't have a single time skip like that, but multiple ones, and it did help to give a sense of progression to the story, I feel. Most noticieable in the "Z segment" with Gohan (though previously too). Super completely shits on that and apparently don't allow the kids to grow, even though the movies actually had teenage Goten and Trunks. A pity.

PushoverMediaCritic I'm sorry Tien, but I must go all out. from the Italy of America Since: Jul, 2015 Relationship Status: watch?v=dQw4w9WgXcQ
I'm sorry Tien, but I must go all out.
#34115: Dec 20th 2018 at 1:57:18 PM

A lot of it was already covered above: manga Goku is much more of a jerk to Gohan and Ultra Instinct Roshi retconned him into being a fighting dumbass, meathead, and terrible student. Manga Goku also thought that babies are always born just teleported out, and wasn't present for Gohan's birth.

It's not just Goku, manga Vegeta regresses straight back to his Saiyan Saga personality during the Tournament of Power. Not like in a meta way, no, he just apparently never stopped being proud of the time when he killed planets. I don't even want to talk more about it, because it's so bad that it makes me frustrated and upset that it still exists and anyone still says good things about it.

The Super manga is just a bad product with bad writing, bad plotting, bad pacing, and bad, or lazy, art. The Super anime has issues, but most of the issues early on are cleared up by the third arc, and while there are occasional bad spots from that point forward, it also has some of the best moments in the franchise, with the good far, far outweighing the bad.

Edited by PushoverMediaCritic on Dec 20th 2018 at 3:00:21 AM

BlackYakuzu94 CHADhan Player. from Easy Coast/NY Since: May, 2013 Relationship Status: Longing for my OTP
CHADhan Player.
#34116: Dec 20th 2018 at 1:59:48 PM

Yea, that quote from Goku basically sums up his entire character, and it comes from the Anime ironically lol.

Luffy is, hilariously, a better Goku than Goku is atm

[up] nobody is gonna take your points seriously when you're so blatantly dismissive to opposing opinions, and part of me feels it's because you have some grudge against Saiga.

Edited by BlackYakuzu94 on Dec 20th 2018 at 5:06:59 AM

A lazy millennial who's good at what he does.
TobiasDrake (•̀⤙•́) (Edited uphill both ways) Relationship Status: Arm chopping is not a love language!
(•̀⤙•́)
#34117: Dec 20th 2018 at 1:59:54 PM

Gohan excepted, Dragon Ball's always had a problem with the age thing, though. Goku and Krillin looked like this when they were 17 years old.

Edited by TobiasDrake on Dec 20th 2018 at 3:00:27 AM

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WillKeaton from Alberta, Canada Since: Jun, 2010
#34118: Dec 20th 2018 at 2:06:30 PM

Wait, maybe years on this Earth are just shorter than ours.

Heatth (X-Troper) Relationship Status: In Spades with myself
#34119: Dec 20th 2018 at 2:10:27 PM

[up][up]They still aged, though. Like, yeah, they look like kids, but they aged, noticeably. They are both taller and have different faces (height is a bit inconsistent, though). And not just them, Bulma, Yamcha also change over time (though it is less clear they are "aging", specially pre-Z). It was always clear to me that Toriyama was trying to do do something to show time have not stopped. It is not big thing, and it is fairly inconsistent, but it is so much better than everyone else that I still have to praise him for that.

The fact that super didn't want to do even that much with their kid characters, even though they actually had designs already done for that, does little to give me confidence. It tells me that no one involved, not even Toriyama, are interested in these little details.

HandsomeRob Leader of the Holey Brotherhood from The land of broken records Since: Jan, 2015
Leader of the Holey Brotherhood
#34120: Dec 20th 2018 at 2:20:59 PM

There are things I like about the anime and the manga.

Since I've never hidden my dislike of the abandonment of the Kaioken and Spirit Bomb (even if the former lacks any proper limits provided you train yourself enough), so seeing Kaioken finally brought back and combined with Blue (which I think is what Goku should have been aiming for instead of Moar Powerful!!! Super Saiyan: taking what he knows and applying it to what he has).

Trunks' stunt with the Spirit Bomb...was dumb, but I like the visual of the Spirit Sword, and I think it's an interesting concept, combining it with a weapon which has never been done in the series before (since as I mentioned earlier, Toriyama just seems to dislike weapons since they nearly always either get knocked away, or broken, unless they are the Nyoi-bo / Power Pole), to say nothing of the villainous fighters who bring them out when they are losing as a cheap shot). Now, if they'd set up before hand that Trunks had learned it (maybe mentioned Supreme Kai took him to see King Kai to learn it or something) it would have been much better. Trunks hasn't even seen the Spirit Bomb yet and while Saiyans have incredible learning abilities, they still have to see something to do it.

I've stated before that the manga does a better job of showing how...casual Zen-O is about erasing things: the Infinite Zamasu Army was not enough of a threat to warrant erasing the entire universe. He could have just erased them and them alone. The anime does make it seem more necessary via Wallpaper Zamasu becoming incorporeal and threatening to reach out into all timelines and universes.

In regards to Ultra Instinct, I'd have used a combination of both versions or tried to: keep the incident with the Spirit Bomb acting as a mistaken trigger, but then have the part where Roshi uses an extremely basic version of it and inspires Goku on how to properly figure it out. I mean.

Many of the other problems I have are the problems that both versions have: wasting both the Mafuuba and Vegetto, refusing to use Buu (the anime may have set him up in a fake out, but Toriyama seems to made Buu just falls asleep into the new Yamcha gets Yamcha'ed of Super. That thing he does all the time because he only seems to want to write out certain characters instead of bothering with them.

I'm not putting one version over another, and I think thats the way to go. I'd have preferred one unified version with Toyotaro setting the ground work, and Toei filling in any blanks he's uninterested in, but both sides communicating so they don't contradict each other. Allow every one to just do what they want (and with an extremely vague outline at that) is the equivalent of not only too many bakers spoiling the pot, but all the bakers trying to make different dishes in one pot. Your Sphagetti is mixing in with your damn cheesecake, and the Haggis has some cream pie in it or some other crazy shit.

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TobiasDrake (•̀⤙•́) (Edited uphill both ways) Relationship Status: Arm chopping is not a love language!
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#34121: Dec 20th 2018 at 2:33:07 PM

As an aside, since the current DBcember fight is Goku v. Beerus in Battle of Gods, I want to note that I still hate Goku's spontaneous whining about having to rely on others to achieve SSJG.

Goku, who needed Yajirobe to carry him to Korin's Tower and Tenshinhan to help him survive Piccolo Daimao's final attack.

Goku, who teamed up with Piccolo to take down Raditz.

Goku, who flat-out lost the fight with Vegeta and saved the world by guiding Gohan and Krillin to finish the job.

Goku, who was able to get his body back from Captain Ginyu via Gohan, Krillin, and Vegeta's teamwork.

Goku, whose plan to defeat Cell was to pin the fate of the world on Gohan's shoulders.

Goku, whose plan to defeat Majin Buu was to pin the fate of the world on Goten and Trunks's shoulders.

Goku, who has as a signature attack the Genki-Dama, borrowing strength from all the people of the world to wield against Vegeta, Frieza, and Majin Buu.

Goku. Is suddenly pissy about not being able to do things himself and having to accept help from other people to fight Beerus. That is such a bizarre out-of-character Vegeta moment.

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randomness4 Ghost '11 from The Land of Inconvenience Since: Sep, 2011
Ghost '11
#34122: Dec 20th 2018 at 2:39:59 PM

Isn't any use of the spirit bomb the only example that is actually kinda relevant to his qualms?

Edited by randomness4 on Dec 20th 2018 at 2:40:46 AM

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Yumil Mad Archivist Since: Mar, 2016
Mad Archivist
#34123: Dec 20th 2018 at 2:40:20 PM

[up]x8 Yeah nah no need to either bother if you're just going to say "this is terrible, and this is terrible, and this is terrible". I'm not asking you to do a shamus-young-reviews-mass-effect-long novel, but you didn't explained how any of what you listed is bad, you just asked me to take your word for it and illustrated it with examples that... sounds super benign to me ?

Like "goku is a jerk" yeah but that's toriyama pushing it and the anime actually has it worse at some point such as when the anime paints him as reponsible for the To P before backpedaling a the speed of pannenkoek.

Not knowing where babies come from is probably a throwaway line that is barely dumber than marriage being food so I'm not exactly gonna get riled up over that.

vegeta not regretting blowing up planets is eeeeeeh but I'm also 90% sure that's not an actual plot point of the story and can easily be glossed over if the rest is worthwhile.

and... And there's no and, those are the only things you said I can try to think about.

None of that deserves calling for the mangaka to lose his job as you did.

Proponents of the manga could be more wrong than you but they're collectively making a far more compelling case.

Edited by Yumil on Dec 20th 2018 at 11:49:59 AM

"when you stare too long into the abyss, Xehanort takes advantage of the distraction to break into your house and steal all your shit."
Heatth (X-Troper) Relationship Status: In Spades with myself
#34124: Dec 20th 2018 at 2:40:43 PM

[up][up][up]Yeah, I was confused when I heard they talk about this. I mean, I guess Goku always wants to get better and improve by himself, even if he see no problem depending on others, so I can sorta buy he wouldn't be fully satisfied knowing this is a level he can't actually achieve by himself. But if he is fighting of the world, I don't think this would even cross his mind. Despite everything, Goku was always quite pragmatic when he thought there was no other chance. Like, the closest he come to this was against Kid Buu and he refused to fuse or even fight together with Vegeta. But he was under the impression he could win with SSJ3 and he admired he fucked up.

Edited by Heatth on Dec 20th 2018 at 8:41:36 AM

Fedetropes Call me Blast, not Fedetropes from Doomed universe Since: Dec, 2016 Relationship Status: Shipping fictional characters
Call me Blast, not Fedetropes
#34125: Dec 20th 2018 at 2:52:28 PM

TBH that plot point would be better if Goku explained that he always hated it but sucked it up to deal with the treat, Beerus being the first to notice it, or something like that

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