Exactly. And this is from me, who likes Tien and Krillin and is glad they got to join in. I still would have preferred Yamcha over Roshi even though I believe that if Yamcha made it in, Toriyama would have played to his strengths and eliminated him first, but I'm also well aware that there were probably better choices.
After faking us out with Buu twice, we were all ready to see him get some action. For all the criticism the anime version gets, I'm glad they had the exhibition matches so we could get something out of Buu besides OH NO! HE FELL ASLEEP AGAIN!!!!'
One Strip! One Strip!![]()
I'm sure it's in a TCG as a random card titled "Desperate Chomp" or something.
What more bugged me about the Tournament of Power (and Super in general, really) in that regard was simply the lack of commitment and payoff for things they set up. If you set something up, stick to your guns and follow through.
I suppose I'm in the minority, but I had zero problems with including the humans in the team. But if you're going to dedicate whole episodes to bringing them in, have them be there for a reason. I second the idea that if, say, Tien was doing to barely do anything in the first place, he shouldn't have been there - it's just a wasted part of the narrative. And it stands out, because Super did that with everything.
Likewise, don't spend time setting up Buu as a fighter and making improvements and then just have him... not be there. Or setting up Gohan as being important to the culmination of the arc and then not do anything with it (or, furthermore, set up Gohan as returning to the series multiple times in Super's run and then drop it). Etc, etc.
Super wanted to have its cake and eat it too a lot - it's one of the series' most glaring problems. In the TOP, they wanted to have this lineup of greats from across the franchise's entire run. But they didn't actually want to do anything with half of those characters, and it shows.
Edited by KnownUnknown on Dec 20th 2018 at 8:12:36 AM
Which is a pity because otherwise the Buu saga kinda subvert this whole concept. Not only final Buu is not strongest Buu, but SSJ3 turns out to be not as powerful as expected twice over.
Curbostomp of not, I like that fight more than half of the fights in the list so far, so I hope it is in.
<.< This is another time where I'm glad I didn't watch the anime.
The manga doesn't spend a lot of time to set up Buu as a fighter. Buu's expected to be a fighter but then he goes into this hibernative sleep and everyone's just like, "Well, f*ck that, I guess. Frieza? Frieza." There are no improvements or special new forms or whatever.
Similarly, Gohan doesn't get a lot of serious build-up or special emphasis, but he does do stuff. In the tournament proper, Gohan's the one who manages to take out Kefla after she's cleared like half the fighters from the board.
My Tumblr. Currently side-by-side liveblogging Digimon Adventure, sub vs dub.I don't know what people are talking about with "nothing is done with Gohan's build-up in the anime", Gohan gets a ton of fights in the anime, all of them really good. He defeats U10's final fighter, in a heartbreaking scene where we see Obuni's family in a locket. He defeats Saonel and Pirina in a team battle with Piccolo, in one of the best fights in the tournament and a valid contender for one of the best fights in the franchise. He's the main fighter against Koichiarator, with Goku and Vegeta backing him up. Finally, he and Freeza team up to defeat Dyspo, and this fight is the pay-off of Gohan's build-up both as a leader and strategist and as a fighter.
The thing about all of that is, when it's been made clear only one or two (maybe three) people actually matter, it just feels like filler.
I didn't get any real sense of progression or improvement from Gohan at all, they were just retreading old ground and trying to make it seem like it was something new or valuable (though Gohan is hardly the only one they did that with).
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I really don't get that.
The Obuni fight is relevant to Gohan's identity as a husband and father, and is what propels Gohan to fight even harder.
The Saonel and Pirina fight is the culmination of Gohan and Piccolo's relationship, with the student protecting the master this time, and it marks the point Gohan stopped being lesser than Piccolo. Not in pure power, he had done that before, but in terms of his mentality and maturity.
The Koichiarator fight is the weakest of the four mentioned, but it also has Gohan take responsibility for keeping his team afloat as the leader by fighting the U3 robots so that Goku and Vegeta can have some rest time to recharge. This also mirrored Cabba's actions earlier in the tournament where he fought Monna to give Caulifla and Kale time to recharge.
The Dyspo fight was Gohan's big pay-off. Gohan has the smart idea to box Dyspo in to restrict him from really using his speed, he convinces Freeza to go along with his plan, and he fights Dyspo in a cage match that pushes Gohan to his limits as a martial artist. When the plan fails, not due to any flaw on Gohan's part; Freeza just couldn't keep up the beams, Gohan still took responsibility and grabbed Dyspo to eliminate both of them.
Figures, but it deserves the spot.
Edited by PushoverMediaCritic on Dec 20th 2018 at 1:27:28 PM
I might make a longer post about this later, but to summarize now, what you seem to take as genuinely emotional and good moments, I take as obvious attempts at emotional manipulation and pandering, because the Super writers didn't seem to understand or care why moments like say, Vegeta's farewell to Trunks and sacrifice were powerful in the first place.
@Drake,
Do you recommend the manga? I gave up the anime once I figured out the pacing was as atrocious as the original and stuff I've been hearing since didn't do much to convince me I made a bad decision. Still, I get curious sometimes and I seem to agree with a lot of your thoughts on Dragon Ball so I am curious. Would you recommend the manga for a lapsed fan?
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I really should watch that movie. I gave up the anime before getting to the fight proper (the pacing was just that bad) but I only heard good things of these movies, so I should give a try. And this video did convince me the fights could be fun to watch.
Edited by Heatth on Dec 20th 2018 at 6:47:31 PM
If your main turn off was slow pacing than I'd absolutely recommend the manga. It's monthly and much, much shorter so it's pretty easy for you to dive in and see if you like it.
Like, you can read the TOP arc in one go, it's 15 chapters. The whole manga is currently 42 chapters, so it won't take long to catch up
The manga avoids the problem of setting things up and failing to follow through on them (for the most part) because most of that is additions Toei made to pad things out. It also lacks some of the other problems brought up in this thread like the anime's over use of named moves and rehashing iconic scenes.
And while this is subjective, I think the manga is much better quality than the anime because it has a more cohesive narrative and better understands the characters.
I say this as someone who doesn't like either version of Super due to objections with Toriyama's outlines and creative decisions (Freeza coming back, the focus on characters etc.)

How many people has Goku bitten?
Uni cat