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PushoverMediaCritic I'm sorry Tien, but I must go all out. from the Italy of America Since: Jul, 2015 Relationship Status: watch?v=dQw4w9WgXcQ
I'm sorry Tien, but I must go all out.
#33876: Dec 14th 2018 at 7:56:43 PM

It's possible that their power would override the transformation magic, like how Vegetto did. Then instead of Androids, you're dealing with two super powerful and very angry carrots.

Actually, I wonder if Boss Rabbit's magic is the same transformation magic that Buu uses to turn people into candy, and the same magic that Puar and Oolong use to shape-shift.

fasoman1996 Google "big ears" from Argentina (A.K.A. Naziland) Since: Dec, 2014 Relationship Status: Baby don't hurt me!
Google "big ears"
#33877: Dec 14th 2018 at 8:02:07 PM

[up] I mean, Buu did turn 18 into chocolate.

Then again, Buu was miles more powerful than her unlike Carrot.

But we are talking about Monster Carrot

Uni cat
TobiasDrake (•̀⤙•́) (Edited uphill both ways) Relationship Status: Arm chopping is not a love language!
(•̀⤙•́)
#33878: Dec 14th 2018 at 9:38:30 PM

That gets into the question of whether magic is relative or absolute.

In the relative scenario, the strength of magic is based on the strength of the person who casts it. In this scenario, Majin Buu's candy magic would have a higher power level than Monster Carrot's carrot magic because Buu is, himself, leagues above Monster Carrot. Vegetto was able to retain his awareness because he's stronger than Buu, and the Androids would have no trouble doing the same.

In the absolute scenario, the strength of magic is a fixed universal constant. In this scenario, Majin Buu's candy magic would have an equal power level to Monster Carrot's carrot magic because magic, itself, exists independently of power levels. Vegetto was able to retain his awareness because he's so powerful that he's transcended the fixed level of magic, but the Androids are nowhere near his strength and would be turned into harmless carrots.

Magic being a fixed universal constant would be the more interesting way to depict it and would further separate it from the funky techniques that ki-users throw around. However, I believe there is sufficient evidence to suggest that Dragon Ball uses the relative scenario. That evidence is Shenron, whose wish-granting magic can only influence people more powerful than his creator if they consent to the wish that targets them.

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HandsomeRob Leader of the Holey Brotherhood from The land of broken records Since: Jan, 2015
Leader of the Holey Brotherhood
#33879: Dec 14th 2018 at 9:40:55 PM

[up]

Huh. That makes a lot of sense.

So, I guess the Androids will be hunting wabbits then? That's one half down.

One Strip! One Strip!
PushoverMediaCritic I'm sorry Tien, but I must go all out. from the Italy of America Since: Jul, 2015 Relationship Status: watch?v=dQw4w9WgXcQ
I'm sorry Tien, but I must go all out.
#33880: Dec 14th 2018 at 9:46:59 PM

You know, unless there's something directly contradicting the theory that Boss Rabbit, Buu, Oolong, and Puar all use the same type of transformation magic, I'm gonna adopt that as my headcanon, because I like that idea. Not necessarily the exact same spell, but the same general type of magic, which explains why Oolong and Puar can only use it on themselves while Boss Rabbit does it to other people on contact and Buu does it with a pink electricity beam.

Maybe the creation magic that Kami, Piccolo, Dabura, the Kaioshin, and the Angels can do is related in some way.

Edited by PushoverMediaCritic on Dec 14th 2018 at 10:48:07 AM

Larkmarn Since: Nov, 2010 Relationship Status: Hello, I love you
#33881: Dec 15th 2018 at 11:15:12 AM

DB will never allow a fight to be settled with anything other than brute power...with a few exceptions obviously.

That are those exceptions? I can't think of any offhand.

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unnoun Since: Jan, 2012
#33882: Dec 15th 2018 at 11:24:32 AM

Roshi's legs were longer, Goku got hit by a car, Goku figured out to fly even though he couldn't actually move his body anymore, Gohan as an Oozaru was really heavy and Vegeta couldn't move...

...Come to think of it, a lot of fights in DB up to Frieza end with everyone exhausted on both sides.

Like, Goku was exhausted after the spirit bomb, but somehow got all his energy back in Super Saiyan.

King Piccolo and Goku were both exhausted, but I guess I'd still put it to brute force, end of the day.

Cell, our regenerator asshole, was at peak performance (...I think, does he even get tired? He got a Zenkai and turned Perfect again, does that mean he got more energy?) and lost to a battered and broken Gohan. Like a bitch.

...I have no idea what to classify techniques like Special Beam Cannon and Spirit Bomb as Brute Force wise.

I think the Special Beam Cannon's power level was either stronger than or on par with Raditz, (Like, a hundred points weaker at most) so.

Edited by unnoun on Dec 15th 2018 at 3:00:23 PM

Heatth (X-Troper) Relationship Status: In Spades with myself
#33883: Dec 15th 2018 at 11:39:32 AM

...Come to think of it, a lot of fights in DB up to Frieza end with everyone exhausted on both sides.

Huh. Probably part of why I tend to like earlier DB fights better. It helps to sell it was a hard won fight. Freeza's fight is a great example. The super sayan transformation itself is great, and iconic. But the fight after that is a wash.

Fedetropes Call me Blast, not Fedetropes from Doomed universe Since: Dec, 2016 Relationship Status: Shipping fictional characters
Call me Blast, not Fedetropes
#33885: Dec 15th 2018 at 12:09:40 PM

Kinda surpised this made into the list

Also I kinda disagree with them on curbstomps, but eh, is their video

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HandsomeRob Leader of the Holey Brotherhood from The land of broken records Since: Jan, 2015
Leader of the Holey Brotherhood
#33886: Dec 15th 2018 at 12:10:45 PM

[up][up]

It was a good fight wasn't it?

Edit: [up] Curbstomps have their purpose, but when you know that they are only happening so that Goku can instantly take the other guy down to show how strong he is, they do seem a bit less interesting.

But that's only in hindsight. No one knew that at the time, so I'd say it works in this case, even if it has been done before.

Edited by HandsomeRob on Dec 15th 2018 at 1:12:18 PM

One Strip! One Strip!
unnoun Since: Jan, 2012
#33887: Dec 15th 2018 at 12:11:14 PM

It was a curbstomp, so no, it wasn't.

HandsomeRob Leader of the Holey Brotherhood from The land of broken records Since: Jan, 2015
Leader of the Holey Brotherhood
#33888: Dec 15th 2018 at 12:15:03 PM

[up]

Eh. I still say it's a pretty exciting fight with tension. We see Gohan going all out, and get see even more of how much his character has evolved from that scared kid back on Earth (Gohan consistently leaps into the fray during this arc, perhaps to unconsciously make up for his mistake against Nappa).

And as I said, at the time, even knowing Goku is on the way, you still wonder how things are going to go: will Gohan manage to pull something off? How Much More Can He Take?

But again, most of that is in hindsight.

Edit: and this is me saying this. I'm not a huge fan of curb stomps either.

Edited by HandsomeRob on Dec 15th 2018 at 1:15:30 PM

One Strip! One Strip!
Heatth (X-Troper) Relationship Status: In Spades with myself
#33889: Dec 15th 2018 at 12:18:40 PM

[up][up]Well, I guess it demands on how you see it. Without seeing that video, I can list 2 curbstomps I like: Goku vs Nappa and Vegeta vs Nº18. The first works as a Hope Spot after a despairing fight, without feeling too cheesy, as as convenient Goku's timing was, it wasn't convenient enough. The second because stablish the Androids strength while also giving Vegeta a satisfying reality check.

That said, I don't think I would put either of those in a "favorite fights" list because, as fights, they are just too short and simple to be enjoyable as fights. They feel more like "good moments" to me than "good fights". But that distinction is arbitrary.

(that said, I wouldn't put any of the Ginyuu fights in the list, so I am curious to see their justification)

Edited by Heatth on Dec 15th 2018 at 6:18:57 PM

unnoun Since: Jan, 2012
#33890: Dec 15th 2018 at 12:21:04 PM

...Okay, but Vegeta vs 18 is the best thing of ever of all time though.

Weirdguy149 Former King from Lumiose City Since: Jul, 2014 Relationship Status: I'd jump in front of a train for ya!
Former King
#33891: Dec 15th 2018 at 12:23:21 PM

So's Goku VS Nappa, to be honest, and not just for the meme.

The legend has returned.
unnoun Since: Jan, 2012
#33892: Dec 15th 2018 at 12:25:41 PM

I think it is kinda notable that, even with a base power level twice as strong as Nappa's, Goku still needed Kaioken to actually put Nappa down.

What was he made of? What did they feed that Saiyan?

HandsomeRob Leader of the Holey Brotherhood from The land of broken records Since: Jan, 2015
Leader of the Holey Brotherhood
#33893: Dec 15th 2018 at 12:30:20 PM

[up]

I've been wondering that for a while.

How did Goku not instantly stomp Nappa with his first hit. He did that to Recoome? I don't even think he was necessarily trying to take out Recoome on the very first hit. That's just how it worked out.

But Nappa somehow managed to not only tank everything Goku threw at him, but even fight him somewhat equally once he calmed down and got his head straight, and this is when he's only about half as strong.

I mean, I don't even think Goku is hurting him that much beyond that first gut punch, since he's still raring to go right until the end. What's up with that?

One Strip! One Strip!
Memers Since: Aug, 2013
#33894: Dec 15th 2018 at 12:34:43 PM

The only good curb stomps are where it is deserved. Goku vs Nappa worked cause Nappa was on the rampage.

Vegeta vs 18 and Vegeta vs Perfect Cell worked cause Vegeta was at his height of being insufferable and cocky. On the reverse side Vegeta vs 2nd form Cell worked cause Cell was being the same way.

Most other one sided fights sucked.

Fedetropes Call me Blast, not Fedetropes from Doomed universe Since: Dec, 2016 Relationship Status: Shipping fictional characters
Call me Blast, not Fedetropes
#33895: Dec 15th 2018 at 12:35:07 PM

I think Nappa is one of the few examples of a Stone Wall in Dragon Ball

Was way weaker than Goku, but could take the hits

¡PONLE QUE DIGA!:"¡HUMONGOSAURIO HASTA LA MUERTE!"
WillKeaton from Alberta, Canada Since: Jun, 2010
#33896: Dec 15th 2018 at 12:36:44 PM

Can we go back to the moon for a second? Because I remember this idea I had years ago where all these various superweapons like the Death Star and the like kept blowing up the moon and Kami kept putting it back, getting more and more frustrated each time. But there were these guys, ZAFT, the guys from Mobile Suit Gundam SEED who had just built a superweapon, and kept trying to blow up the moon, like they were trying to do in the actual show, but they kept missing and blowing up random stuff in space.

HandsomeRob Leader of the Holey Brotherhood from The land of broken records Since: Jan, 2015
Leader of the Holey Brotherhood
#33897: Dec 15th 2018 at 12:38:19 PM

[up][up]

If that's the case, Nappa might have been a beast as a Super Saiyan.

One Strip! One Strip!
Heatth (X-Troper) Relationship Status: In Spades with myself
#33898: Dec 15th 2018 at 12:57:25 PM

@Handsome Rob,

Goku wasn't using the Kaiohken against Nappa until the last moment. I think he was just not strong enough to curbstomp Nappa that hard.

As for the video, I don't really disagree with nothing they said and, yet, I wouldn't elevate it to above Goku vs Jack Chun. Maybe good animation and rare teamwork just weight that much more in their opinion. But, to me, the Recoom fight is just a weaker repeat of Nappa, with less deserving ending.

Edited by Heatth on Dec 15th 2018 at 6:57:48 PM

randomness4 Ghost '11 from The Land of Inconvenience Since: Sep, 2011
Ghost '11
#33899: Dec 15th 2018 at 12:57:47 PM

When was Semi-perfect Cell being insufferable?

Was it all the yelling?

Edited by randomness4 on Dec 15th 2018 at 12:58:33 PM

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unnoun Since: Jan, 2012
#33900: Dec 15th 2018 at 2:15:16 PM

Goku was "Over 8000" in the manga and the Japanese dub (how much over is my question, because, funnily enough, technically it could make "Under 9000" a valid way to say it) and supposedly, according to guides and things, Nappa was consistently 4000.

Granted, Piccolo at 3500 is really really close to Nappa in numbers, but he doesnt do much more to Nappa than anyone else, but.

Like, all the numbers there are from pages of Shonen Jump next to the manga chapters.

Also, while the PTO in general with their Scouters is sometimes/often/usually or always surprised by suppressing power levels, the Raditz fight, with the Kamehameha and Special Beam Cannon, showed off that some techniques can have a higher power level than a fighter's base. And Raditz supposedly never saw that before.

Goku needed a Kaioken x 3 for 24,000 to match/lose slightly/barely to Vegeta's Galick Gun, and then x4 to 32,000 to overwhelm it, and Vegeta's supposed to be. 18,000. At base.

Vegeta doesn't read his own power level in the Galick Gun, and I dont think there's any comment on it.

...And, shit, I have no idea how to calculate Kamehameha and Kaioken. Even with Kamehameha being stronger than base.

Edited by unnoun on Dec 15th 2018 at 5:27:22 AM


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