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Ikedatakeshi Baby dango from singapore Since: Nov, 2015 Relationship Status: Singularity
Baby dango
#33451: Nov 3rd 2018 at 5:03:50 PM

I would assume it's just increasing the output of Ki rather than the amount of Ki. You know, the whole "not being to use all of one's strength because it damages the body" thing.

ultimatepheer Since: Mar, 2011
#33452: Nov 3rd 2018 at 5:42:17 PM

You know, given that it's called the kaioken, shares a color with super saiyan god, and is called a technique used by gods, my theory is that it's just an injection of ki, possibly of divine ki hence the color. Where does it get this ki from? That's a trickier question, maybe it just pulls it out of some big background pool of divine ki or something.

Ikedatakeshi Baby dango from singapore Since: Nov, 2015 Relationship Status: Singularity
Baby dango
#33453: Nov 3rd 2018 at 6:51:44 PM

But God Ki can't be sensed.

PushoverMediaCritic I'm sorry Tien, but I must go all out. from the Italy of America Since: Jul, 2015 Relationship Status: watch?v=dQw4w9WgXcQ
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#33454: Nov 3rd 2018 at 7:58:03 PM

I wonder if Bulma would be able to make a Scouter that is capable of scanning Godly Ki and converting it into Power Levels.

TobiasDrake (•̀⤙•́) (Edited uphill both ways) Relationship Status: Arm chopping is not a love language!
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#33455: Nov 3rd 2018 at 8:09:21 PM

  • Whis: Bulma, what does the Scouter say about Beerus's power level?
  • Bulma: It's over 9000.
  • Whis: ...
  • Bulma: What?
  • Whis: That's...not technically incorrect.

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fasoman1996 Google "big ears" from Argentina (A.K.A. Naziland) Since: Dec, 2014 Relationship Status: Baby don't hurt me!
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#33456: Nov 3rd 2018 at 8:12:40 PM

Maybe in god ki levels, over 9000 must be pretty powerful.

Belmod is said to have the power of 1.3 million

Uni cat
Ikedatakeshi Baby dango from singapore Since: Nov, 2015 Relationship Status: Singularity
Baby dango
#33457: Nov 3rd 2018 at 8:12:41 PM

If she didn't make scouters capable of withstanding power levels higher than those on Namek, why bother doing it with God Ki? I mean, considering how media tend to make scientists know every form of science and engineering, Bulma definitely could if she wanted to.

PushoverMediaCritic I'm sorry Tien, but I must go all out. from the Italy of America Since: Jul, 2015 Relationship Status: watch?v=dQw4w9WgXcQ
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#33458: Nov 3rd 2018 at 8:50:43 PM

It's not like she doesn't have experience either with Scouters or with machines that can scan for magical energy signatures.

Saiga Since: Feb, 2011 Relationship Status: Getting away with murder
#33459: Nov 4th 2018 at 2:05:22 AM

@unnoun If Jiren was a Saiyan he'd be fundamentally different history and biology so that's not quite the same thing as there being nothing stopping Jiren from stacking Kaio-ken on top of his current business.

UI is similar which is why I don't like it being a massive power boost but at least then it's not explicitly a multiplier.

unnoun Since: Jan, 2012
#33460: Nov 4th 2018 at 2:48:49 AM

If there's a thing I like about Kili in the Buu Saga, it's that there isn't just one universal unit of measure of Power Level. Or energy or whatever.

Bulma can probably make a scouter but have it count the power levels differently using different units of measure.

And anyway, for me the villain character that most confuses me about why he didnt use the Kaioken is Cell, because using other, older moves is basically literally his thing, and with Zenkai and regeneration he could possibly just get infinitely stronger by fucking his body up with Kaioken and then healing from it.

Unless Freeza's cells just make him too durable to damage himself to near death with a Kaioken.

Edited by unnoun on Nov 4th 2018 at 9:44:06 AM

WillKeaton from Alberta, Canada Since: Jun, 2010
#33461: Nov 4th 2018 at 9:14:40 AM

When they introduced Kili, I thought "they already have powers levels, why does Toriyama need a second way to measure energy?" But I think Kili actually measures energy directly, whereas power levels measure something different that affects their fighting ability. Like, a person had a power level. A kamehameha is measured in Kili. Though I think the way super Saiyans glow, and the way they measured Kili from them, I think they're constantly giving off Kili the whole time they're transformed.

TobiasDrake (•̀⤙•́) (Edited uphill both ways) Relationship Status: Arm chopping is not a love language!
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#33462: Nov 4th 2018 at 10:11:37 AM

A Kamehameha has a power level too.

At basically the same time Scouters and power levels were introduced, we learned that the ki attacks the characters throw around can have higher levels than the characters themselves.

When fighting Raditz, Piccolo had a battle power of 408. The Makankosappo, however, had a battle power of 1,480.

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HandsomeRob Leader of the Holey Brotherhood from The land of broken records Since: Jan, 2015
Leader of the Holey Brotherhood
#33463: Nov 4th 2018 at 10:18:23 AM

And that was with only one arm.

Can I once again say that I'm disappointed that we never see a proper Special Beam Cannon in the series (beyond a blink and you'll miss it scene during the fight with Nappa)?

And the fact that attacks can be stronger than the user don't mean much considering how much time you have to spend charging them, making them Awesome, but Impractical for the most part (you pretty much have to hope the other guy will both stand there while you do it, and then not be fast enough to dodge).

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Kamiccolo Since: May, 2018
#33464: Nov 4th 2018 at 3:47:08 PM

It's implied that kiri measures energy while power levels measure intensity (power/area). Which is why scouters can mistake two close powers for a single power, why compressing a ki blast into your finger tips increases the power level, why Great Apes with thousands of times the surface area of a human only have x10 the power level, why giant beam attacks have the same power level as a normal person yet aren't completely harmless due to having many times the contact area, and so on. Toriyama's a car fanatic, so he should at least know the difference between energy and power.

This would also conveniently explain why Babidi and Dabra said that the base Saiyans had more "energy" than Piccolo, or why Babidi thought the Saiyans had enough "energy" to resurrect Majin Buu but still thought Pui Pui could beat them.

Then again, Dabra also said "Yakon can't win against [Goku]" because his kiri was 800 and SS Goku's was 3,000. So maybe kiri is power yet they have a separate, off-screen system of measurement for just energy?

I dunno. The kiri numbers plus a few other instances (like base Goku referring to himself as 1,000 non-specific units, Dabra saying he has over 4,000 kiri in the anime, Goku saying fusing with Satan would only make him 1,001, Goku being a 6 to Beerus's 10, and even Freeza's infamous 1.3 million line in ROF) actually make me suspect that Toriyama had a note sheet somewhere comparing characters on a different scale than power levels.

Edited by Kamiccolo on Nov 4th 2018 at 3:50:08 AM

Metroid26 Since: Jul, 2011
#33465: Nov 4th 2018 at 5:02:18 PM

I just figured they were measuring the same thing like Celsius and Fahrenheit for temperature. It's not like there is an in-story reason why Babidi would have to use the same technology and terminology as Freeza's forces.

TobiasDrake (•̀⤙•́) (Edited uphill both ways) Relationship Status: Arm chopping is not a love language!
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#33466: Nov 5th 2018 at 7:03:25 AM

or why Babidi thought the Saiyans had enough "energy" to resurrect Majin Buu but still thought Pui Pui could beat them.

Y'know, I'd never actually thought about that.

Like. Even if Pui Pui was just supposed to slow them down and deal some damage (since the point of the trial was that any damage dealt to the Saiyans would contribute energy to Buu's revival), that does still raise the question of why he'd ever think Pui Pui would ever have been more than a skidmark.

Then again, Babidi did ultimately succumb to Evil Is Not a Toy after Goku talked to Buu for five minutes. And his ultimate defender, Dabura, was only able to threaten them due literally to random chance (Gohan's turn in the randomly decided turn order). And also he totally outsmarted himself to Piccolo with his whole "Only I can reimprison Buu" gambit.

Babidi might just be stupid. One of those dudes who's just smart enough to think that he's way smarter than he actually is, totally convinced of his own intellectual superiority as he dumbf*cks his way through foreseeable errors.

Edited by TobiasDrake on Nov 5th 2018 at 8:06:02 AM

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HandsomeRob Leader of the Holey Brotherhood from The land of broken records Since: Jan, 2015
Leader of the Holey Brotherhood
#33467: Nov 5th 2018 at 7:36:30 AM

I can buy it.

Babidi could barely see an inch in front of his face.

His powers were formidable, but he never considered for moment what would happen if he lost control of Buu (which he should have considered since his father sealed him away for a reason, despite the version of Buu he dealt with being more controllable than the one Bibidi created SUMMONED).

I mean, if he'd shown up during the Freeze Saga, he'd have been able to mind jack Freeza and basically rule the universe...but only provided he didn't do something dumb to get himself killed before hand...which he easily could.

Edited by HandsomeRob on Nov 5th 2018 at 8:37:00 AM

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fasoman1996 Google "big ears" from Argentina (A.K.A. Naziland) Since: Dec, 2014 Relationship Status: Baby don't hurt me!
Google "big ears"
#33468: Nov 5th 2018 at 7:41:39 AM

Reminder: Everyone is dumb in Dragon Ball

Uni cat
TobiasDrake (•̀⤙•́) (Edited uphill both ways) Relationship Status: Arm chopping is not a love language!
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#33469: Nov 5th 2018 at 11:49:09 AM

Honestly, he never even needed Buu. Dabura was already powerful enough that even Kaioshin was intimidated by him. With Daikaioshin consumed by Majin Buu, there is nobody above Kaioshin. Not until "Battle of Gods" introduced Beerus, who Buu couldn't hold a candle to anyway.

There are Goku, Vegeta, and Gohan, but nobody actually realized how powerful they were. Kaioshin is utterly blown away by their abilities; he sorely underestimated what they could do. So for Babidi's decision-making, that's not really a factor. Besides, they only became a factor because Babidi brought Dabura to Earth to try and revive Buu.

What it boils down to is that Buu was a vanity project. Babidi wanted Buu because Bibidi made Buu. There was literally nothing he wanted Buu to do that Dabura couldn't have handled just as well.

It's like going out of your way to get Super Vegeta to fight the Ginyu Force when you already have Post-God Merger Piccolo. Yes, Super Vegeta's stronger than Piccolo. But he's completely unnecessary for the task, an awful lot harder to acquire, and dangerously unstable. Sometimes the best kill is not, in fact, overkill.

Edited by TobiasDrake on Nov 5th 2018 at 12:51:57 PM

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HandsomeRob Leader of the Holey Brotherhood from The land of broken records Since: Jan, 2015
Leader of the Holey Brotherhood
#33470: Nov 5th 2018 at 12:06:56 PM

Pretty much.

What even was Babidi's plan?

Hell, what was Bibidi's plan?

Why did they want to punch the universe in the face so much? And in the case of the former, why did he believe he specifically needed Buu for it, since as [up] points out, Dabura was just as capable.

Hell, he could have arguably done it with Freeza. The King of Demons and the most powerful Mortal (until Super Saiyans came along) under his thumb? He'd have been sitting pretty.

But that wasn't good enough for him. It had to be Buu, and once he had him, nothing else mattered. Everything was just a toy to be thrown away: a tool to be abandoned, even if it was still extremely useful.

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TobiasDrake (•̀⤙•́) (Edited uphill both ways) Relationship Status: Arm chopping is not a love language!
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#33471: Nov 5th 2018 at 12:10:42 PM

Frieza wouldn't have been able to kill Kaioshin. Kaioshin straight up says that he could have punked out Frieza pretty effortlessly. Frieza was the most powerful mortal being in the universe before the Super Saiyans came along, but Kaioshin's a god. So it's a completely different weight class (until RoF, anyway).

Babidi wanted generic revenge for Bibidi. So Kaioshin was presumably on his kill list. Problem is, Dabura could have served that purpose just fine.

Edited by TobiasDrake on Nov 5th 2018 at 1:11:48 PM

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LSBK Since: Sep, 2014
#33472: Nov 5th 2018 at 12:14:59 PM

At least in the anime Dabura pointed that out when they thought Buu was a dud and Babidi was all like "...But I really wanted that Majin Buu."

unnoun Since: Jan, 2012
#33473: Nov 5th 2018 at 12:36:03 PM

Shin can immobilize Dabura with telekinesis in the Super manga, so that could just end up as a stalemate.

Like, Shin struggled to do it, and only managed a minute or so for Trunks could finish Dabura off.

Shin couldn't seem to move while doing it. And he died right after. Rather from the exertion of paralyzing Dabura or from the injuries he had already sustained or both.

Anyway, he did still need a Super Saiyan 2. To actually kill Dabura.

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Kamiccolo Since: May, 2018
#33475: Nov 5th 2018 at 9:00:02 PM

There's actually a very good reason why he'd want Buu: to Babidi, Dabra is only gonna be around for a few weeks. Remember that Babidi is over 5 million years old. When Dabra dies of natural causes (there's no indication he's immortal), the warlock goes back to being helpless and having to rely on shitters like Pui Pui, Yakon, and Freeza, who wouldn't even be a speed bump to Kaioshin, who he can't find at will (or any Kaioshins to be born later... unless Buu destroyed their tree?). Buu fixes that problem by also being immortal.

Edited by Kamiccolo on Nov 5th 2018 at 9:00:38 AM


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