Will you two please stop flirting and just fuck already or fuse or post a screenshot from the manga or whatever the hell it is you're doing? All this sexual tension is just getting annoying.
Like, as far as I know, Saiga eats, drinks, sleeps, shits and breathes the Dragon Ball Manga, and has every panel tattooed on the inside of his skull or something, but like. Still though.
I mean, in fairness, I think Goku only mentions the rage boosts after Cell starts fighting Gohan/trying to, at which point Cell powers up more than he did when he was fighting Goku. He has like, about two power-ups and ki charge thingies between fighting Goku and him blowing up into Super Perfect.
Goku's initial plan could have just been Gohan being stronger without rage boost, because Goku vs Cell was the most intense fighting capability Cell showed up to that point, and even then Cell was explicitly holding back to match Goku's level.
...Oh, right, Saiga did say that.
So.
If you didn't have Super Saiyan 2 for Goku/Vegeta, then either they'd surpass him with just SS 1 (making SS 2 meaningless) or Gohan would need to have massive power seep for them to be ahead of him. Given that Gohan gets Ultimate later in the arc I think it'd be silly to give him an exclusive form that he's going to stop using. And I find Ultimate to be much more interesting.
Huh. That's fair.
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Cite a page, then, because not one other character has the reaction you're claiming.
I'm not being contrary, Goku has one panel where he's smug thinking about Cell getting Gohan mad, a later moment showing uncertainty in Gohan's rage boosts, and the way he details his reasoning behind selecting Gohan which doesn't mention his rage at all.
I've also pointed out why I don't think it makes sense to think Gohan's rage was Goku's only plan. You haven't really addressed the points I'm making, just calling me contrary without reasoning behind it.
Gohan's own interpretatio had already been discussed: he still had a hard time accepting that he was stronger than Goku. He also didn't understand why Goku would have him fight alone. His assumption on Goku's plan is coloured by this misunderstanding, and it shows un the way he explains it.
There's no evidence that Goku thought Gohan's rage was the only way to win, and it outright contradicts what Goku said.
I find Ultimate to be kind of confusing, honestly.
Ultimate Gohan gives Gohan access to his full potential. But he can't go Super Saiyan anymore. This makes him immensely stronger than even Goku's Super Saiyan 3.
But. Why though.
Like. Super Saiyan isn't a power level, it's a multiplier. So it's not like that ever stops being a useful thing. It's like saying that after merging with God, Piccolo is now more powerful than the Kaioken.
Like. That's cool and all. But the Kaioken still helps, right?
You know what would be more powerful than Ultimate Gohan? 100 Ultimate Gohans. So losing the ability to transform still feels like a handicap. Like, maybe if Gohan could still transform, Buutenks wouldn't have been such an insurmountable foe for him. Just a thought.
Edited by TobiasDrake on Nov 3rd 2018 at 9:23:41 AM
My Tumblr. Currently side-by-side liveblogging Digimon Adventure, sub vs dub.I mean, we're supposed to buy that Full Power Super Saiyan is stronger than Grade II by making Super Saiyan so natural it's like a new base form, so.
Like, maybe Super Saiyan is a power level, it just happens to be a power level that's a multiplier of whatever your base form is. And through Bullshit you can access that multiplier without actually transforming.
Or something. I dunno.
...Ultimate probably maybe could be stacked with Kaioken now that you mention it.
And I still get mad that Piccolo and the other dead losers didnt learn the Kaioken and Spirit Bomb, because what the fuck was the point of sending them to King Kai.
Like. Shit, if I was King Kai, even after they were brought back I would keep up with them with my telepathy and give them, like, homework. It's called being a responsible teacher that cares. Sometimes a student can't come to class anymore, but there's still ways to help them complete their education, without just dropping the course.
Especially when you're a god that can watch them and talk by telepathy. Tien and Piccolo honestly had nothing better to do anyway.
King Kai specifically told Goku to never go above the regular Kaioken and x2, he did anyway because he's a bullshit protagonist, I think Piccolo could probably survive higher because Namekian Bullshit, and Tien strikes me as stubborn and stupid enough that he wouldn't care about killing himself, but.
Not the point. Kaioken doesn't have to make them useful, it's just dumb and lame to have them train with King Kai and for that to not mean anything in terms of learning the things you get from training with King Kai, the techniques that King Kai invented and teaches to his students.
Edited by unnoun on Nov 3rd 2018 at 11:43:15 AM
Piccolo with the Kaioken would be amazing.
Tenshinhan less so but I agree with the logic that he wouldn't care about killing himself. He explicitly doesn't. KIIIIKOOOOOHOOOO.
I just want to see Tenshinhan combine suicide-techniques, blasting someone with the Kaiokoho while immediately fragging himself with the blowback.
Edited by TobiasDrake on Nov 3rd 2018 at 9:39:03 AM
My Tumblr. Currently side-by-side liveblogging Digimon Adventure, sub vs dub.I'm picturing him exploding but the impact crater is bizarrely cube-shaped.
My Tumblr. Currently side-by-side liveblogging Digimon Adventure, sub vs dub.Anyone else wondering if Eighteennote will be joining the Krillin Plays series?
Fiat iustitia, et pereat mundus.Well it wouldn't help any way, but that's not your point. In universe, there's no reason for them not to learn the Kaiouken. Hell, Piccolo planned on finding a way to Namek from the start I believe (well, maybe not, but once he knew about the three wishes, it probably became a thing, and he did secretly think to himself that he wasn't going to stick to the promise to not fight Freeza). Yeah, they should have learned the Kaiouken. It's a new technique and they've always jumped on that shit before.
Especially when you're a god that can watch them and talk by telepathy. Tien and Piccolo honestly had nothing better to do anyway.
That's true. The fact that King Kai seems pretty detached from his students (he's nowhere to be seen in Future Trunks' timeline at all, even though his help would be greatly appreciated.
Not the point. Kaioken doesn't have to make them useful, it's just dumb and lame to have them train with King Kai and for that to not mean anything in terms of learning the things you get from training with King Kai, the techniques that King Kai invented and teaches to his students.
Well, what can you do? He was determined to phase out both the Kaiouken (due to not really having any limits if you become strong enough, though that could have been fixed by placing an upper limit how how high you can boost yourself) and those other characters (who only existed as fodder for Goku to fight, or to look better than). It's annoying, but that's how it is.
Hell, I've said before that the Spirit Bomb also has a lot of potential, or at least the concept of drawing outside energy from living things. That's another wasted concept.
One Strip! One Strip!Trunks and Gohan were never King Kai's students so him not being involved in the Future Trunks timeline I honestly don't care about. He's got a galaxy or quadrant or whatever he does to run.
It's the fact that he doesn't care about any of our other characters who trained with him.
Like, Goku literally killed him and blew up his planet.
Tien always strikes me as the human castmember of Dragon Ball it would be most difficult to actually be friends with because, aside from the volleyball, he's boring and dull as shit. He's single-minded as all hell.
But after Goku fucking killed me? Even Tenshinhan would honestly start looking really good right about then.
To be fair, Piccolo was only on Kaiou's planet for, like, six days. Yamcha was there for maybe seven. Tenshinhan was there for a few months but it took Goku about half a year to master it so there's no way he could have learned more than the basics in that time.
Let the joy of love give you an answer! Check out my book!Again, to be fair, it's not like Tenshinhan or the others ever sought out Kaiou to finish their training. Hell, they wouldn't even have to do that much. Goku could have taught it to them during the three-year wait for the Androids.
Let the joy of love give you an answer! Check out my book!Characters in Dragonball don't teach each other their techniques. Everyone just figures things out on their own.
In every case where a character was trained by someone else, it seems they just trained through sparing or some other uncharacteristic training (like Roshi making Krillin and Goku do milk runs and plow fields with their hands).
Sure, maybe in some cases they should have, but with the massive strength gaps, training with others weaker than them would slow them down too much.
One Strip! One Strip!I mean. We don't know that they didn't. Maybe Tien asked and King Kai or Goku blew him off.
Again, I'm broadly okay with the characters becoming out of focus as they do.
But saying they learned it offscreen while training with him and having them do it like, once, with Piccolo Kaioken as part of an additional explanation to him overpowering Android 20 and Tien Kaioken helping him hold Semi-Perfect Cell would have been relatively simple.
Also, although we dont see Roshi teaching punches or kicks or blocks, he says Chi-Chi's style is like the Turtle School Style, so. Like, maybe Roshi is just doing things full Karate Kid, Wax On Wax Off style and the skipping and high knees and swimming and field ploughing is supposed to make you automatically move in a certain way.
Edited by unnoun on Nov 3rd 2018 at 1:28:40 PM
Well, the martial arts in the series is more wuxia than anhtging else. Everybody is a martial artist.
On Ultimate: Old Kaioshin says that transformong is the wrong way to do things. The Super Saiyan forms are described as drawing out a Saiyan's dormant power (in the dub = potential) in various places. Old Kaioshin has the super dormant power unlock.
He drew out Gohan's powers so far that he doesn't need to transform to do so anymore.
As to whether that could stack with Kaio-ken, well we don't know where exactly the Kaio-ken gets its strength from. It could also be drawing on dormant power, and therefore be redundant. It could've been a way for Super to have Ultimate Gohan keep up with the God characters without just making him get super strong in a day, though.
I still think Kaio-ken is bad for the series because it's too universal and is a really big multiplier.
Yeah. The mechanics of Kaiouken are still a mystery really.
And it definitely needed some kind of set limit on how high you could go. Then it could have kept being a thing.
One Strip! One Strip!Even then, I don't think so. If you set it at 10x it means that literally every antagonist they meet afterwards is running at 1/10th of their thereotical strength - imagine Jiren with Kaio-ken x10, or Beerus.
A better way to phase it out would be to say that the technique eventually becomes redundant with better ki control, like how Piccolo talks about explosively raising their ki in his fight wiyh Gero.
You know that makes sense.
As much as I like the visual of the Kaioken, a more subtle use of it would be more Toriyama's thing I think.
He's very simple but many of the mechanics and concepts that are introduced early in the series are still being used later.
He keeps training because there's Always Someone Better.
He continues the lessons he learned from training with Weighted clothing when he comes up with Full Power Super Saiyan.
It would make sense that he's still using the principle behind the Kaioken, and in fact you could argue he was doing that during his fight with Burter and Jeice.
I've been thinking that rather than a full on technique, the Kaioken would have worked better as a training method. Like how Ranma's Kachu Tenshin Amaguriken was supposed to be a speed increasing training as opposed to an actual attack like the anime made it into.
You know, I might finally be able to let go of my salt over Kaioken being dumped.
One Strip! One Strip!

Edited by sgamer82 on Nov 3rd 2018 at 8:52:06 AM