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TobiasDrake (•̀⤙•́) (Edited uphill both ways) Relationship Status: Arm chopping is not a love language!
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#33401: Nov 2nd 2018 at 3:01:17 PM

It's neither a flaw inherent to Gohan nor one inherent to Super Saiyan 2 specifically. Being sadistic and cruel is a flaw inherent to Saiyans.

That the Super Saiyan transformation makes people more aggressive and cruel has been a thing since Goku first transformed on Namek and promptly told Gohan to grab Piccolo and GTFO before he lost all reason he had. Goku implicitly suggested that he might attack Gohan under the influence of this form if the kid didn't leave, something a more reasonable Goku would never consider.

Becoming a Super Saiyan makes a character more Saiyan-like, at least until they've taken the time to grow accustomed to the form. Consequentially, Gohan's sudden sadism and cruelty in Super Saiyan 2 when he's Saiyaning even harder is perfectly consistent with the nature of the form established by Goku on Namek.

Edited by TobiasDrake on Nov 2nd 2018 at 4:01:41 AM

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WillKeaton from Alberta, Canada Since: Jun, 2010
#33402: Nov 2nd 2018 at 3:30:41 PM

Makes you wonder if Goku had issues when he went Super Saiyan 3 the first time.

Fedetropes Call me Blast, not Fedetropes from Doomed universe Since: Dec, 2016 Relationship Status: Shipping fictional characters
Call me Blast, not Fedetropes
#33403: Nov 2nd 2018 at 4:00:16 PM

I think he did, but resolved them by the time he's using it onscreen for the first time

¡PONLE QUE DIGA!:"¡HUMONGOSAURIO HASTA LA MUERTE!"
alekos23 Since: Mar, 2013
#33404: Nov 2nd 2018 at 4:16:26 PM

man that must've been rough for King Kai.

unnoun Since: Jan, 2012
#33405: Nov 2nd 2018 at 4:28:50 PM

I mean, was it though?

Like, what's the worst Goku could do, blow up his planet?

OHWAIT

TobiasDrake (•̀⤙•́) (Edited uphill both ways) Relationship Status: Arm chopping is not a love language!
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#33406: Nov 2nd 2018 at 4:32:56 PM

Please Super Saiyan responsibly.

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TobiasDrake (•̀⤙•́) (Edited uphill both ways) Relationship Status: Arm chopping is not a love language!
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#33407: Nov 2nd 2018 at 5:13:25 PM

Sorry for the double post but idle thought:

Cell really should have paid more attention to the 22nd Tenkaichi Budokai. Or, if you prefer the anime interpretation, his Tenshinhan cells.

Tenshinhan has a technique that can repel the Kamehameha back at its user.

Think about that.

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SonOfSharknado Love is Love is Love Since: Oct, 2013 Relationship Status: And they all lived happily ever after <3
Love is Love is Love
#33408: Nov 2nd 2018 at 5:16:36 PM

Goku should have paid more attention to the 23rd Budoukai. The one he won. He still would have been able to ring Cell out.

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unnoun Since: Jan, 2012
#33409: Nov 2nd 2018 at 5:29:14 PM

I mean, Cell says he would have allowed a victory by ring-out, but would he though? Would he really?

LordVatek Not really a lord of anything Since: Sep, 2014
Not really a lord of anything
#33410: Nov 2nd 2018 at 5:34:31 PM

I have to wonder what would happen if he did.

*Goku rings Cell out*

Cell: Okay that's it, I lose. I won't blow up the Earth.

Goku: ...Okay good.

Cell: ...

Everyone: ...

Goku: ...Now what?

Cell: *Shrugs*

This song needs more love.
unnoun Since: Jan, 2012
#33411: Nov 2nd 2018 at 5:38:18 PM

Baby Trunks grows up with an Uncle Cell.

Krillin either never gets laid or fucks Cell.

In case of the latter, Marron gets replaced by a Cell Jr. in a dress. Maybe a wig.

And she'd still be cute.

Edited by unnoun on Nov 2nd 2018 at 8:50:28 AM

HandsomeRob Leader of the Holey Brotherhood from The land of broken records Since: Jan, 2015
Leader of the Holey Brotherhood
#33412: Nov 2nd 2018 at 5:39:56 PM

Sorry for the double post but idle thought:

Cell really should have paid more attention to the 22nd Tenkaichi Budokai. Or, if you prefer the anime interpretation, his Tenshinhan cells.

Tenshinhan has a technique that can repel the Kamehameha back at its user.

Think about that.

I did. That sound you hear is my mind exploding.

That being said, Tien never repelled a Kamehameha as big as the ones being tossed around post 22 Budokai.

Can he? We don't know because Goku neither tried (no needed) to use it in their fight at the 23rd Budokai.

That being said, if it's based on the power of the user like almost everything in this series, then Cell could have countered the Kamehameha.

So Cell is an idiot.

As for being ringed out, considering he blows up the ring because Goku almost got ringed out and he felt it was too limiting, I'm pretty sure he'd have just ignored it, blown up the ring and then continued the fight anyway.

He's kinda a dick like that.

So Cell is an idiot and a dick

One Strip! One Strip!
unnoun Since: Jan, 2012
#33413: Nov 2nd 2018 at 5:45:31 PM

Roshi says when Tien does it that it would work on any Kamehameha no matter how powerful.

Granted, Roshi never saw any Kamehameha as powerful as the ones at the #Cell Games, but.

Like, at that point, Roshi was aware of the Dondonpa and Kikoho and. King Piccolo's ki attacks. But Roshi specifies that it's the kamehameha the deflection works on, so apparently whatever Tien does isnt something that would work on any ki blast, but the Kamehameha specifically.

Like, the Kamehameha normally requires you to charge it by cupping your hands (or a hand) to the sides, and you basically always have to say the "Ka Me Ha Me Ha" syllables so. I dunno what's up with it. What unique properties it has that make it deflectable by that technique.

Tien seems to wait for a specific moment when he does it, so the timing seems to be important. And he clasps his hands in a hand seal thing.

HandsomeRob Leader of the Holey Brotherhood from The land of broken records Since: Jan, 2015
Leader of the Holey Brotherhood
#33414: Nov 2nd 2018 at 6:05:30 PM

See, Tien should have figured out how to re-apply that attack to other Ki-Attacks.

That would have been interesting. He really does have some of the most interesting techniques.

The exact mechanics of his Kamehameha No-Sell technique are really interesting: does his own power level matter? Why does he have such a specific technique?

Why does it only work against the Kamehameha? For that matter, can it even been used against other Ki attacks? Did he ever try to figure out a way to do so?

If I re-call correctly from when he first used it against Yamcha, it flat out reflects Turtle Power Waves. It's a shame Toriyama just totally lost interest in him, because if the technique could be re-applied, it would have given Tien a strange niche against people stronger than him...that is, until they just punch him in the face.

One Strip! One Strip!
randomness4 Ghost '11 from The Land of Inconvenience Since: Sep, 2011
Ghost '11
#33415: Nov 2nd 2018 at 7:59:37 PM

Weird how Ten needs a technique to do that, when Karrot literally just stopped Kriller's by palm alone.

And I assume Yamucha's would be weaker.

Edited by randomness4 on Nov 2nd 2018 at 8:00:49 AM

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HandsomeRob Leader of the Holey Brotherhood from The land of broken records Since: Jan, 2015
Leader of the Holey Brotherhood
#33416: Nov 2nd 2018 at 8:01:11 PM

He's Karrot.

Anything you can do, I can do better is literally his thing.

One Strip! One Strip!
PushoverMediaCritic I'm sorry Tien, but I must go all out. from the Italy of America Since: Jul, 2015 Relationship Status: watch?v=dQw4w9WgXcQ
I'm sorry Tien, but I must go all out.
#33417: Nov 2nd 2018 at 8:02:22 PM

Tenshinhan's move for blocking Kamehamehas is him clasping his hands together, charging up, and creating a barrier in front of him with a kiai. It's not exclusive to Kamehamehas, either, Tenshinhan used it in the 23rd Tenkaichi Budokai to block Cyborg Taopaipai's Super Dodonpa. It may work abnormally well for blocking Kamehamehas in particular, but I doubt it actually has the power to block any Kamehameha, no matter how strong.

Edited by PushoverMediaCritic on Nov 2nd 2018 at 8:05:23 AM

randomness4 Ghost '11 from The Land of Inconvenience Since: Sep, 2011
Ghost '11
#33418: Nov 2nd 2018 at 8:04:45 PM

[up][up]Well both K-man and Y-man both used the Kamehameha for the first time that tournament...so of course.

Karrot also just said it wouldn't work.

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fasoman1996 Google "big ears" from Argentina (A.K.A. Naziland) Since: Dec, 2014 Relationship Status: Baby don't hurt me!
Google "big ears"
#33419: Nov 2nd 2018 at 8:05:16 PM

Poor Tenshinhan. Everyone forgets about his abilities sans the Kikoho and then steals his other famous technique.

Why do they insist that Krillin create the Solar Flare?

Uni cat
PushoverMediaCritic I'm sorry Tien, but I must go all out. from the Italy of America Since: Jul, 2015 Relationship Status: watch?v=dQw4w9WgXcQ
I'm sorry Tien, but I must go all out.
#33420: Nov 2nd 2018 at 8:05:58 PM

[up][up]Actually, Yamcha's Kamehameha was stronger. Krillin's was weak because he just figured out how to do it during his fight with Chiaotzu, while Yamcha was doing secret training before the tournament to figure it out. Krillin also states that he and Yamcha are about even in strength after Tenshinhan beats Yamcha.

HandsomeRob Leader of the Holey Brotherhood from The land of broken records Since: Jan, 2015
Leader of the Holey Brotherhood
#33421: Nov 2nd 2018 at 9:06:32 PM

Krillin also states that he and Yamcha are about even in strength after Tenshinhan beats Yamcha.

Really? He actually says he and Yamcha were equal? I find that hard to believe (even as someone who likes Yamcha) since the latter had only just started training with Roshi.

Then again, Yamcha had his own special technique well before Krillin met Roshi as well, but since it's Yamcha, it's hard to believe him being equal with anyone since the plot always throws a bus on him.

One Strip! One Strip!
PushoverMediaCritic I'm sorry Tien, but I must go all out. from the Italy of America Since: Jul, 2015 Relationship Status: watch?v=dQw4w9WgXcQ
I'm sorry Tien, but I must go all out.
#33422: Nov 2nd 2018 at 10:07:16 PM

Yeah, no, after Tenshinhan beats Yamcha, Krillin is nervous about fighting Chiaotzu, since Yamcha was about as strong as he is.

It's interesting since, according to their respective performances against Jackie Chun, Krillin was a LOT stronger than Yamcha during the 21st Tenkaichi Budokai. Really shows just how seriously Yamcha took his training while under the Turtle Hermit, which makes sense since Yamcha was always a huge martial arts nerd.

It's implied that Yamcha put in overtime while Krillin just did routine training, since Yamcha mastered the Kamehameha with secret off-screen training and Krillin hadn't even tried the Kamehameha until his fight with Chiaotzu.

Edited by PushoverMediaCritic on Nov 2nd 2018 at 10:08:44 AM

unnoun Since: Jan, 2012
#33423: Nov 3rd 2018 at 1:27:58 AM

Tien didn't do the hand claspy thing with the Super Dodonpa. It wasn't the same technique.

Edited by unnoun on Nov 3rd 2018 at 4:28:25 AM

Saiga Since: Feb, 2011 Relationship Status: Getting away with murder
#33424: Nov 3rd 2018 at 7:17:57 AM

No, Goku is all smug and confident while thinking Gohan is gonna get mad. And after Gohan gets mad, everyone goes "ah, so that was Goku's plan".

Absolutely no-one has that reaction in the manga.

Goku outright says his plan is based on Gohan being much stronger than him. He's also stronger than the level that Cell fought Goku at. Now, Goku admits it's still possible Cell was holding back (and he was) but he had no reason to bank on Gohan's rage specifically especially when he wasn't expecting Gohan to be reluctant to fight Cell.

Saying that was his plan all along is at odds with everything else we see from him. His plan was 'Gohan will beat Cell', Gohan winning through the power of his rage would still be satisfying that.

But thinking that Goku was counting on his rage wouldn't work unless he was doubting Gohan's ability to win without it - which doesn't make sense, because Gohan was stronger than him and the power Cell showed so far.

Y'know, Goku getting Super Saiyan 2 and then Super Saiyan 3 beyond it does kinda ruin Gohan's transformation, despite the intent to give back the torch to Goku having not been present yet (IIRC, that decision was made during Gohan's fight with Super Buu).

Like. Goku unlocks both of these offscreen while training with Kaio-sama. The implication that all Goku needed to achieve Super Saiyan 2 himself and even surpass it was to train some more kinda ruins the idea that only Gohan could achieve this level of power and wield it against Cell.

Given how totally useless Super Saiyan 3 winds up being in the long run, maybe it would have been best to just keep Super Saiyan 2 as a Gohan-exclusive transformation and have Goku and Vegeta stay at Super Saiyan 1. I mean, it's not like Goku ever actually wins a fight again.

I don't think it ruins it at all. Only Gohan could achieve that power at that time. The point with Gohan isn't any set level of power or exclusive transformation, it's just that his potential is greater than Goku's. He'll always be stronger than him with the same training. If anything, focusing on the transformations would diminish the importance of Gohan's potential because it'd make it look like the extra form is the only thing keeping him ahead (which is what many people already thought about him at the Cell Games).

Giving Goku access to the same forms but having him be weaker than Gohan would demonstrate Gohan's potential much better. And that actually happens with Vegeta in the Boo arc - he has Super Saiyan 2, but needs the Majin boost before he actually surpasses Cell Games Gohan. Going by Piccolo's words, he doesn't even surpass Gohan by a wide margin and he's even with Goku, so it took Goku an extra seven years to be just stronger than Gohan in the same form.

If you didn't have Super Saiyan 2 for Goku/Vegeta, then either they'd surpass him with just SS1 (making SS2 meaningless) or Gohan would need to have massive power seep for them to be ahead of him. Given that Gohan gets Ultimate later in the arc I think it'd be silly to give him an exclusive form that he's going to stop using. And I find Ultimate to be much more interesting.

Sorry for the double post but idle thought:

Cell really should have paid more attention to the 22nd Tenkaichi Budokai. Or, if you prefer the anime interpretation, his Tenshinhan cells.

Tenshinhan has a technique that can repel the Kamehameha back at its user.

Think about that.

Well, he doesn't even have Ten's cells in the manga, but even if he did... that technique is weird. Roshi declares it can deflect any Kamehameha, no matter how big it is, but this was back when the strongest opponent Roshi knew was Piccolo Daimao. I don't know if his comment could be stretched to apply to the kind of KHH's we see thrown around later in the series.

And honestly, even if it did (or it was proportionate, allowing Cell to deflect other KH Hs) what difference would it make? The characters would just use other beam attacks. The KHH isn't explicitly different enough that being able to nullify only the KHH could be a useful niche. Also, in all the situations where Cell got hit by a KHH, he was either surprised (Warp Kamehameha) or had his opponents use it after he was charging his own attack. I don't think he'd be in a position to actually use the technique.

Moth13 Since: Sep, 2010
#33425: Nov 3rd 2018 at 7:24:55 AM

Absolutely no-one has that reaction in the manga.

Yes they do.

Like. If Gohan says it, Goku says it, and other characters say it, I think trying to say Goku's plan wasn't rage boosts is being contrary for no reason. Yes, obviously Gohan was way stronger than Goku. That doesn't mean he could win against Cell as-is without rage boosts.


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