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LSBK Since: Sep, 2014
#33376: Nov 1st 2018 at 5:43:50 PM

Something I've been thinking is that a lot of drama actually surrounding the situation feels really artificial.

Goku has no real reason not to explain this to Gohan and everyone else beforehand, and while I'm sure they would still be nervous, if they actually understood that, yes, Gohan is much stronger than Goku, so much trouble could have been avoided.

It doesn't even really feel stupid in a way that Goku should be stupid, I think.

Edited by LSBK on Nov 1st 2018 at 7:45:17 AM

PushoverMediaCritic I'm sorry Tien, but I must go all out. from the Italy of America Since: Jul, 2015 Relationship Status: watch?v=dQw4w9WgXcQ
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#33377: Nov 1st 2018 at 6:45:24 PM

The anime, at least, makes it VERY explicit that Goku's plan was to have Gohan beat Cell with Super Saiyan 2. After Cell tries to rage-quit and Gohan beats his Kamehameha, Goku thinks to himself that this is exactly what he wanted, and he has a flashback to training with Gohan in the Time Chamber. In this flashback, Gohan and Goku are sparring, Gohan flashes into Super Saiyan 2 for a split second, and Goku thinks about how that was when he knew that Gohan would beat Cell.

unnoun Since: Jan, 2012
#33378: Nov 1st 2018 at 6:45:33 PM

As if all that wasn't enough, you also have the fact that Cell was doing basically no damage to Gohan during that first bit. Goku explicitly states that Gohan's ki isn't going down.

I'm honestly not sure how much sense that makes, considering one blast from Super Perfect Cell later supposedly made Super Saiyan 2 Gohan's ki go down by "half" and Super Saiyan 2 Gohan was still stronger than Cell after that, unless the blast from Vegeta made Super Perfect Cell's ki go down.

...Dragon Ball would be a sucky RPG, because your ki is your health, your attack stat, your speed stat (unless you take a weird debuff to boost the rest of your ki parameters even more) and your defense stat.

...I mean, "stamina" is different from ki I guess, what with Super Saiyan 3 and 100% Freeza and Golden Freeza and Ultra Instinct, but I have no idea how exactly.

The anime, at least, makes it VERY explicit that Goku's plan was to have Gohan beat Cell with Super Saiyan 2.

See, if Moth 13 could just specify that he's talking about the anime, this would be a much simpler conversation.

...Also, I'm not sure that flashback makes sense, given how when Gohan turns Super Saiyan 2, everyone's expression is one of shock, like it's nothing they were expecting or had seen before, even Goku.

Edited by unnoun on Nov 1st 2018 at 9:50:15 AM

Moth13 Since: Sep, 2010
#33379: Nov 1st 2018 at 6:50:11 PM

I'm referring to both the manga and the anime, since the relevant events are the same in both.

PushoverMediaCritic I'm sorry Tien, but I must go all out. from the Italy of America Since: Jul, 2015 Relationship Status: watch?v=dQw4w9WgXcQ
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#33380: Nov 1st 2018 at 6:54:44 PM

Here's the scene in question. This is Kai, too, the official current version of the anime.

unnoun Since: Jan, 2012
#33381: Nov 1st 2018 at 7:04:51 PM

I know what scene you meant.

What I was saying is that, like, a minute (or, DBZ time, a thousand episodes) before that, everyone stares at Gohan in shock. There's a cut to everyone's face, including Goku, on the ground.

Using the TFS version because relevance.

Goku's at about 1:16 ish on that timebar. His face is not confident or all according to cake, and I know Kaiser didnt change that expression I looked it up in Kai too.

Goku's face there is not "all according to cake".

That is a face of "what the fuck am I looking at".

PushoverMediaCritic I'm sorry Tien, but I must go all out. from the Italy of America Since: Jul, 2015 Relationship Status: watch?v=dQw4w9WgXcQ
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#33382: Nov 1st 2018 at 7:09:08 PM

Goku at that point is lying on the ground with one eye closed and bleeding out of his head, so it's hard to read his expression. He could just generally be surprised that something is happening.

unnoun Since: Jan, 2012
randomness4 Ghost '11 from The Land of Inconvenience Since: Sep, 2011
Ghost '11
#33384: Nov 2nd 2018 at 6:31:18 AM

Injured people can be surprised too.

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unnoun Since: Jan, 2012
#33385: Nov 2nd 2018 at 7:01:06 AM

Even if Goku was planning on a rage boost, that doesn't have to mean he was planning for Super Saiyan 2 specifically.

Gohan's transformation to Super Saiyan 2 is one of my favorite things, and one of the things I like about it is how shocked everyone is by it.

Goku having a flashback after the fact to say that "no I totally knew all along you guise" is just lame to me.

...Honestly, the reason I'm so adamant that Super Saiyan 1 Gohan was already stronger than regular Perfect Cell is because that's just a better-written, more interesting story to me.

When Gohan turns Super Saiyan 2 it isn't even close to a fair fight for Cell, and Gohan overwhelms him utterly, but Gohan's so overwhelmingly powerful and so cruel throughout that it's probably the worst possible option.

Instead of playing around he should have just finished Cell right away.

Because of Gohan's anger, Goku died. Super Saiyan 2 does not represent a success, does not showcase a strength that Gohan needed to win. It's not like Goku when he turned Super Saiyan 1. Super Saiyan 2 represents a mountain of failure on the part of everyone there, from Cell, to Goku, to Gohan.

And Chi-Chi and Piccolo, the former of whom wasnt there, but. Hell, Bulma and Krillin are friends of the Sons and Gohan specifically, they could have recommended he get counseling.

Goku's plan hinged on hin believing that Gohan would want to fight Cell, not that he'd need to snap to be motivated. Gohan did not understand that Goku did not understand that Gohan didn't want to be there.

In a weird way, that's also true of the Cell battle. Goku is punished in the same way as Piccolo for weaponizing Gohan, while the goal itself is still accomplished.

In both instances, the final verdict for pinning everything on Gohan seems to be, "Yes, his power is immense and he can pull this off. But you eat shit and die for making do it."

See, that, I love all of that.

Goku pinning everything on Gohan in the way he did was a mistake and one he ultimately paid the price for himself.

Like, maybe, if Goku had told Gohan beforehand, or maybe if Gohan had more training on his mind and staying calm and getting the job done...

And, well, maybe if Goku could have known that Gohan didnt want a fair or "fun" fight, once dad had his fun Gohan wanted to just kill the bugman and go han Gohome, so Goku wouldn't give the Senzu Bean. Maybe if that.

Maybe, if all of those things, the #Cell Games could have ended very differently.

Not that all or any of those would have actually been in-character for anyone. But it's just a what if.

But because of the way things turned out, because of a multitude of failures in communication and parenting (which, successful parenting involves good communication, so same thing) everything nearly went to shit, and sorta did.

Like, some people think Goku wanted to die, and planned everything at the Cell Games specifically for that, which. What the fuck, when the fuck has Goku ever been that smart a planner. There was a whole improbably sequence of events that Goku couldn't possibly have known.

I think he was probably aware he could die, obviously, and he tried to get his affairs in order as much as he could just in case, fucked his hot asian wife for a week straight while staying Super Saiyan beforehand.

But if Goku could have walked away alive I think he would have.

But he fucked up. Not as a martial artist, he was absolutely right that Gohan was the only one that could kill Cell, and he was ultimately right to send him out. That decision in and of itself was the right one.

But he went about it all wrong, and had to pay for it.

That's a story I like.

randomness4 Ghost '11 from The Land of Inconvenience Since: Sep, 2011
Ghost '11
#33386: Nov 2nd 2018 at 7:05:50 AM

I wanna see someone just say "I agree with [up] that that would be a Better story, buuuuut I'mma still say that the other option which may or may not have been the intent is the more likely thing that happened."

Just love it.

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unnoun Since: Jan, 2012
#33387: Nov 2nd 2018 at 8:11:05 AM

Like, Super Saiyan 2 works as like a Double Subversion for the arc and its transformations up to that point.

Vegeta and the others had talked about finding a form even past Super Saiyan, of ascending, and with Semi-Perfect Cell we see it, and then Perfect Cell takes those transformations apart and makes them look pathetic and useless, and then Goku shows up from the Time Chamber and says, no, transforming past Super Saiyan is dumb and sucks, instead you have to make Super Saiyan the best it can be.

And then Gohan just transforms past it anyway. He gets so enraged, as much as Goku did on Namek, that he basically turns Super Saiyan again while already a Super Saiyan. It's still recent enough to all the talk of surpassing Super Saiyan, but also right after they introduced the fact that surpassing it just by transformation was pointless and a bad idea.

And, in it's way, specifically because of the anger in Gohan that birthed it, Super Saiyan 2 itself is ultimately a little pointless and a bad idea. Gohan's arrogance and sadism causes more harm than good.

Like, aside from Super Saiyan itself, rage boosts don't normally result in transformations. Oozaru is some bullshit with the moon and fake radiation, Super Saiyan Grade II, Grade III, Super Saiyan 3 and Super Saiyan Blue just seem to be gotten from training (and, in fairness, Goku and Vegeta seem to have just gotten Super Saiyan 2 that way in the Buu Saga,) Super Saiyan 4 is bullshit with the moon again and also love for family or just self control maybe, Super Saiyan God is the ritual and light and purity of heart and goodness. Except Vegeta, I guess now it's just training again.

The rage of Goku's Super Saiyan 1, Gohan's Super Saiyan 2, and Broly and Kale's Berserk or Legendary whatevers are the odd ones out.

...And, from the name you would think the Trunks Super Saiyan Rage thing in the Super anime, except ironically that seems more like taking the energy and dreams and prayers and stuff from the people of the future, so honestly "Super Saiyan Hope" would be a more accurate name. Fit better with the "Hope" theme Future Trunks has.

Be cheesy, but "Super Saiyan Rage" is honestly not much better.

Super Saiyan Rosé is I guess just a Super Saiyan Supreme Kai or Kai person maybe, I dunno.

...I really love Super Saiyan 2 Gohan at the #Cell Games a lot. I guess.

And I think Goku knowing about it ahead of time ruins it.

...Like, Super Saiyan 2 gets a little ruined in the Buu Saga anyway, but. That basically happens with every transformation afterwards, so.

At least Super Saiyan 2 had an original unruined appearance and wasn't sorta weird and bad from the start like Blue.

...The original Super Saiyan God Goku transformation in the Battle of Gods movie (I honestly cannot remember the anime version for the life of me) is maybe not as good as Super Saiyan 2, but I do honestly like it?

And Super Saiyan 3. Like, Goku got it offscreen, and he powers up yelling for basically a whole episode.

The bit in the transformation where you see an Oozaru is weird and a little cool but also makes things confusing with Super Saiyan 4.

Super Saiyan 3 never actually feels as special or unique as Super Saiyan 2 did though.

Edited by unnoun on Nov 2nd 2018 at 2:19:26 PM

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#33388: Nov 2nd 2018 at 8:20:58 AM

Y'know, Goku getting Super Saiyan 2 and then Super Saiyan 3 beyond it does kinda ruin Gohan's transformation, despite the intent to give back the torch to Goku having not been present yet (IIRC, that decision was made during Gohan's fight with Super Buu).

Like. Goku unlocks both of these offscreen while training with Kaio-sama. The implication that all Goku needed to achieve Super Saiyan 2 himself and even surpass it was to train some more kinda ruins the idea that only Gohan could achieve this level of power and wield it against Cell.

Given how totally useless Super Saiyan 3 winds up being in the long run, maybe it would have been best to just keep Super Saiyan 2 as a Gohan-exclusive transformation and have Goku and Vegeta stay at Super Saiyan 1. I mean, it's not like Goku ever actually wins a fight again.

Until Super, anyway.

EDIT: I mean, that would bar Gotenks from achieving Super Saiyan 3, but come on. The manga had already introduced fusion as a power-up that would let him fight Buu. Was it really necessary to stack a second one on top of it? Just say he's strong enough from the fusion.

Edited by TobiasDrake on Nov 2nd 2018 at 9:23:01 AM

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unnoun Since: Jan, 2012
#33389: Nov 2nd 2018 at 8:25:25 AM

Like, Goku and Gohan came out of the Time Chamber early, after only 9 months instead of the full year, because they hit a plateau.

Vegeta and Trunks and Piccolo go in the Time Chamber again and dont get shit out of it in the Cell Saga.

...Vegeta and Goku go in together in Super and from what I can tell dont get anything out of it then either except beards that they shave off.

Now, maybe you need to train for 7 years instead of just one to push and push and push against that peak of power until you finally break past it again.

But it's still honestly a little weird narrative-wise.

LSBK Since: Sep, 2014
#33390: Nov 2nd 2018 at 9:14:37 AM

I'd just chalk it up to Gohan having way more potential like they're always saying. He achieved it much sooner than Goku did, with (comparatively) less work.

Besides, Goku's issue wasn't more training couldn't help, it was specifically training in the chamber for any longer would be counterproductive.

Which I guess Super contradicts, what with Goku and Vegeta staying in their for several years at a time now, but whatever.

unnoun Since: Jan, 2012
#33391: Nov 2nd 2018 at 9:37:01 AM

I dont think training in the Chamber even did anything for them.

Like, certainly not a massive power gain.

LSBK Since: Sep, 2014
#33392: Nov 2nd 2018 at 9:38:46 AM

Yeah, but they still thought it was a good idea, for some reason. I think they said the reason they didn't get much gains was ostensibly because Goku and Vegeta just don't have the potential to get much stronger. Which is, yeah.

Edited by LSBK on Nov 2nd 2018 at 11:39:26 AM

Eriorguez Since: Jun, 2009
#33393: Nov 2nd 2018 at 11:35:45 AM

To be honest, I still get the feeling their base form and Super Saiyan is still at their Cell saga tier a decade after the fact: since then, they have improved by transforming and getting better at using said transformations.

Vegeta's mistake seems to be working on the transformation before imptoving on his base.

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#33394: Nov 2nd 2018 at 11:43:58 AM

If that were true, I don't think Vegeta would be as dismissive about Gohan's fight with Dabura was he was. Dabura is as powerful as either Perfect or Perfecter Cell; it's not really clear which. Even normal Perfect Cell was powerful enough to make Super Vegeta eat dirt pretty effortlessly, though.

Despite this, Vegeta seemed pretty convinced that either he or Goku would be able to hand Dabura his ass on a plate with relative ease, leaving him intensely frustrated when Gohan can't. The whole reason Majin Vegeta happened was because Cell's level of power was So Last Season.

And since Vegeta only achieved Super Saiyan 2 by allowing himself to become Majin Vegeta, that's not available as an explanation. He only had his regular Super Saiyan transformation (and, presumably, Grades II and III) when he was like "OH MY GOD stop embarrassing us with a guy who just has Cell's lameass power level."

Edited by TobiasDrake on Nov 2nd 2018 at 12:45:25 PM

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unnoun Since: Jan, 2012
#33395: Nov 2nd 2018 at 12:24:30 PM

I'm pretty sure Saiyan Beyond God or whatever means their base forms have improved by Super.

I dunno by how much.

Eriorguez Since: Jun, 2009
#33396: Nov 2nd 2018 at 12:43:27 PM

It was used in Resurrection F, then disregarded by anything to come afterwards, specially the Manga.

Fedetropes Call me Blast, not Fedetropes from Doomed universe Since: Dec, 2016 Relationship Status: Shipping fictional characters
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#33397: Nov 2nd 2018 at 1:07:54 PM

[up][up][up]wasn't confirmed in a guidebook that he achieved SS 2 by training?

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#33398: Nov 2nd 2018 at 1:09:16 PM

I actually really hate the interpretation that Gohan could've beaten Cell without Super Saiyan 2. Like, I REALLY hate it. It makes the Cell Games fight into something it's not. Gohan turning SS2 isn't meant to be seen as this great failure because Gohan uses SS2 to beat Cell in the end.

Gohan is a bit more sadistic, but he doesn't turn into a monster, and Gohan having that sadistic side comes back later on when he gets Ultimate. It feels like shifting the blame on Gohan's fuck-up not killing Cell from a flaw inherent to Gohan's personality to a flaw inherent in SS2, which I don't like because it sets a false expectation for all future SS2 appearances, regardless of who's using it.

Gohan getting all sadistic and mean would've happened even if he was strong enough to beat Cell in SS1, because that's not something that comes from a transformation, that's something that naturally comes from Gohan's personality when he's the strongest person around and full of spite and anger.

Previously, Gohan's rage boosts have only ever been beneficial, even if ineffectual at times. Gohan turning SS2 is meant to be the culmination of his rage boosts, it's not meant to be a Superpowered Evil Side. Gohan failing to kill Cell is supposed to be Gohan having a personality flaw that throws a wrench into an otherwise perfectly functioning plan.

Goku's plan worked, Gohan's personality just wasn't compatible with it. This is the case both before and after Gohan goes SS2, and it's the whole point of the fight. Pre-SS2, Gohan's reluctance to fight is the wrench thrown into the plan. Post-SS2, Gohan's sadism is the wrench thrown into the plan. The point is that the plan worked perfectly, except for the fact that Gohan was the one the plan hinged on.

I also don't like this theory because I feel it exaggerates just how sadistic and how mean SS2 Gohan was. Gohan was sadistic, but not evil, he still saved everyone from the Cell Jrs and got the Senzu back to heal them. Gohan's sadism isn't a flaw that only exists in SS2, the same thing happens when Gohan goes Ultimate, he drags out his fight with Super Buu, using him as a punching bag and acting cocky. The only difference is that Gohan is more mature in the Super Buu fight, so his sadism isn't quite as straight-forward and obvious.

randomness4 Ghost '11 from The Land of Inconvenience Since: Sep, 2011
Ghost '11
#33399: Nov 2nd 2018 at 1:21:30 PM

It's a really good interpretation isn't it?

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unnoun Since: Jan, 2012
#33400: Nov 2nd 2018 at 1:24:56 PM

because Gohan uses SS 2 to beat Cell in the end.

After Goku dies. Bit of a mixed bag there.

Gohan is a bit more sadistic, but he doesn't turn into a monster, and Gohan having that sadistic side comes back later on when he gets Ultimate. It feels like shifting the blame on Gohan's fuck-up not killing Cell from a flaw inherent to Gohan's personality to a flaw inherent in SS 2, which I don't like because it sets a false expectation for all future SS 2 appearances, regardless of who's using it.

I mean, sorry if I, at least, aren't articulating it well. I definitely think it's more a flaw in Gohan then the form itself. But, in that moment, Super Saiyan 2 is definitely born from Gohan. Flaws and all.

Gohan getting all sadistic and mean would've happened even if he was strong enough to beat Cell in SS 1, because that's not something that comes from a transformation, that's something that naturally comes from Gohan's personality when he's the strongest person around and full of spite and anger.

I mean, sure, but Gohan's spite and anger are what created Super Saiyan 2. In that moment, it and Gohan's personality aren't quite separable.

Gohan failing to kill Cell is supposed to be Gohan having a personality flaw that throws a wrench into an otherwise perfectly functioning plan.

Goku's plan worked, Gohan's personality just wasn't compatible with it. This is the case both before and after Gohan goes SS 2, and it's the whole point of the fight. Pre-SS 2, Gohan's reluctance to fight is the wrench thrown into the plan. Post-SS 2, Gohan's sadism is the wrench thrown into the plan. The point is that the plan worked perfectly, except for the fact that Gohan was the one the plan hinged on.

I basically agree with all of that though?

he still saved everyone from the Cell Jrs

In fairness, it was a pretty near miss with Krillin though.


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