We also shouldn't take as an absolute assumption that they've always talked about every single thing that has ever happened to them without it being shown onscreen.
If the topic of discussion was that Piccolo knew about Gohan's role without being shown learning of it, you would be right that it's reasonable for him to have been told offscreen.
But the topic of discussion is that Piccolo seemed entirely ignorant of Gohan's contribution and the fact that weaponizing him actually served a purpose. In this case, the burden of proof is on you to prove that he absolutely must have been informed about Gohan's contribution.
The two assertions:
- They might have talked about it offscreen.
- They might never have talked about it offscreen.
are both reasonable. As such, neither can be used to claim that the events that transpired are illogical.
Edited by TobiasDrake on Nov 1st 2018 at 12:57:01 PM
My Tumblr. Currently side-by-side liveblogging Digimon Adventure, sub vs dub.Doesn't matter either way. As I originally said, the dad stuff isn't even necessarily bad on it's own, it could just be a quirky, somewhat heartwarming relationship that diverges somewhat from the real thing.
The only issue comes in when TFS treats their biases like fact, and other people do the same because they treat TFS like some authoritative voice on DB/share the same biases.
For the record, I think that applies to more than just this specific topic.
Edited by LSBK on Nov 1st 2018 at 1:57:54 PM
That said, I don't understand why it matters? That "it turned out for the best" doesn't excuse the motives, which is what Piccolo took issue with. He saved Gohan to save Gohan, not to save the Earth. Whether he knew it saved the Earth or not is irrelevant.
Found a Youtube Channel with political stances you want to share? Hop on over to this page and add them."Doesn't excuse the motive" is a weird way of phrasing it - it implies the motive in question is somehow selfish of unnecessary, when it was neither.
That's the real sticking point here, Gohan was literally the only one who could beat Cell. Under the same logic Piccolo is actually less justified because he wasn't working under the logic that no one else would be able to stand a chance against the Saiyans.
Like I said, Goku's and Piccolo's actions get equated but actually looking at the details, Goku comes off much better, except for two points - not telling Gohan before hand and giving Cell the Senzu.
Edited by LSBK on Nov 1st 2018 at 2:02:17 PM
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It matters to his later argument with Goku that sending Gohan to fight Cell is a terrible idea. Fans have, on many occasions, pointed this out as complete hypocrisy because Piccolo himself sent Gohan to fight the Saiyans. It's where Piccolo's relationship with Gohan began.
This is a common misunderstanding of hypocrisy. Having one opinion and then years later having the opposite opinion isn't hypocritical. It just means people change. And the catalyst for Piccolo switching sides on "Should Gohan be honed to a knife's edge and then stabbed into a foe?" is very likely to be the fight with Nappa itself, where bringing Gohan to the fight bit Piccolo in the ass and ultimately cost him his life.
It's not hard to see why Piccolo would be opposed to weaponizing Gohan after what happened with Nappa.
Edited by TobiasDrake on Nov 1st 2018 at 1:01:27 PM
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Those are two pretty damn huge "excepts."
The latter because, as previously mentioned, Gohan's rage boost isn't exactly reliable. And especially the former because it severely undercuts the "it was the only way!" reasoning.
Edited by Larkmarn on Nov 1st 2018 at 3:29:31 PM
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Oh, I get that. It's just, that's sort of thing you have to accept for a series like this. Goku was a child saving the world and shit. And yeah Goku was never a normal child, but Gohan was never a normal child either. If he were we wouldn't even be having this discussion.
Did I say they weren't? I mentioned them as things that Goku did wrong. But both of your points are wrong - Goku wasn't planning to rely on a rage boosts, Gohan just thought that was what he had in mind. And Senzu or no Senzu, Gohan was the only one strong enough their to stand a chance. Healing Cell, while stupid, doesn't undercut that because Goku figured that from the beginning.
Edited by LSBK on Nov 1st 2018 at 2:38:54 PM
So a thing I notice in a lot of the DBZ movies from World's Strongest on is that whenever Gohan gets in trouble, Piccolo shows up to save him.
This lasts right up until Broly Second Coming, where it's Krillin dressed like Piccolo. As a joke or reference to it.
...That's the only possible explanation for that because it makes no sense otherwise.
Can I just say that the idea that if we don't see Piccolo finding out about what Gohan did means he never learned about it to be really fucking stupid?
Like of course he knows about it, he's not a moron. We don't need to see it, its not like we need to seee the characters taking a dump just to know they still need to take a shit.
Edited by slimcoder on Nov 1st 2018 at 1:40:20 AM
"I am Alpharius. This is a lie."I mean, I always took that as "We he get serious his true power will come through". Not, "Gohan will go crazy and kill Cell."
Gohan was already way stronger than Goku, he (and everyone else) just couldn't tell. Which actually seems pretty weird, but whatever.
Edited by LSBK on Nov 1st 2018 at 4:00:20 AM
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No, that isn't made clear. Goku says that Gohan is stronger than him already (which he is) and that's what he is relying on. Gohan is all 'does not compute' and then determines that Goku is relying on his rage boosts to make him snap and kill Cell. Then when Gohan is refusing to fight, Goku says their only hope is for Gohan's rage boosts, but he's a lot less confident.
Nowhere is there a suggestion than that was really Goku's plan. If it was, that doesn't line up with Piccolo's accusation that Goku misunderstood Gohan's view of fighting.
Goku's plan hinged on hin believing that Gohan would want to fight Cell, not that he'd need to snap to be motivated. Gohan did not understand that Goku did not understand that Gohan didn't want to be there.
Which is pretty realistic for people who don't have regular duties/hobbies that keep them in contact (work, education, sports). I quite like it since fiction normally goes for 'nakama 5eva'
Edited by Saiga on Nov 1st 2018 at 7:09:40 PM
Anyway, if there's one thing that's both consistent and completely misunderstood, it's that Gohan was already overwhelmingly stronger than, at least, Goku, even before Super Saiyan 2.
The entire fight, Gohan is acting like Goku is just playing around and talks about how his dad isnt fighting seriously yet, even when we see Goku panting and exhausted and sweating because he's given it all he had.
Because, to Gohan, his dad and Cell look pathetic. And he can't conceive of the idea that he's actually stronger than his dad.
Now, maybe Cell was still stronger than Super Saiyan 1 Gohan, the only thing that contradicts that is the line where Super Saiyan 2 Gohan's got "cut in half" when he lost his arm, and that when conbined with the (pretty sure out of manga supplemental) assertion that Super Saiyan 2 is only twice as strong as Super Saiyan 1.
But Super Saiyan 1 Gohan was undoubtedly stronger than Goku. He just couldn't realize it because he didn't want to.
No, Goku is all smug and confident while thinking Gohan is gonna get mad. And after Gohan gets mad, everyone goes "ah, so that was Goku's plan".
Wow. Arguing with Saiga. That's a new one.
Like, I think the Multiform Technique Cell is Filler, but it's worth noting that it was treated as a joke by Goku the first time when Tien did it. Cell was definitely just dicking around.
Perfect Cell powers up at least twice after he starts fighting Gohan, once before and once after Super Saiyan 2, so going purely off the manga there's a case to be made that Super Saiyan 1 couldnt do the job.
But there's this belief in so much of the fandom that Gohan wasn't stronger than Goku until Super Saiyan 2, and that's just wrong, because there's multiple points where Gohan acts like Goku isnt taking things seriously even just before he gives up, even when we the audience can see Goku exhausted.
Gohan was their only hope even without rage boosts because even without them he was the strongest member of the group. End of.
He acts like Goku and Cell are in slow motion to him. He keeps expecting Goku to pull out the rest of his power that he's been hiding, because Gohan knows he's got more power than that.
Dragon Ball isnt always great at foreshadowing, but Gohan spectating at the Cell Games is some of the fucking best the series has.
Edited by unnoun on Nov 1st 2018 at 5:52:41 AM
As if all that wasn't enough, you also have the fact that Cell was doing basically no damage to Gohan during that first bit. Goku explicitly states that Gohan's ki isn't going down.
Kid Goku did it on purpose, though. He was saving the world because he wanted to be saving the world. There was never a point where the protagonists were like, "Goku, you're f*cking insanely powerful. Go single-handedly dismantle the Red Ribbon Army. We'll wait here."
In fact, they actively tried to stop him from doing that to no avail. The reasonable adults wanted to keep the child out of harm's way, with the story being written in such a way that they fail to do so. This allowed Goku to battle the Red Ribbon Army without his friends and father figure coming across as terrible people in the process.
That's the distinction. It rubs some fans the wrong way that in the Cell Games, Goku deliberately and purposefully constructs his plan around his child fighting Cell. If instead of Goku going, "Here is my master plan: Child Soldiers!" Goku had instead just lost the fight with Cell, Gohan stepped up to replace him out of desperation, and everything else continued exactly as is, I guarantee you that it would not be so controversial.
It's not unusual for child characters to be the hero in a story. What is unusual, primarily for how just wrong it feels to the audience, is for the characters to go, "Yes, I completely and wholeheartedly agree with sending a nine-year-old to confront Stabman the Mad Butcher. This is a reasonable course of action!"
A token effort by the characters we're meant to like to not put the fate of the world on a child's shoulders can make all the difference in how a story is received.
Edited by TobiasDrake on Nov 1st 2018 at 6:36:43 AM
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In a different story I might say that matters, but it just feels strange to get up in arms about that here.
It's complaining about something feeling wrong, even though it's fundamentally the same thing. And I get those feelings, I just don't agree with them, at least not in situations like this.
Edited by LSBK on Nov 1st 2018 at 7:41:54 AM
Idle thought: It was pointed out a page or two ago that Goku and Piccolo were kind of both right in the Saiyans' fight. Piccolo is ultimately punished for trying to turn Gohan into a weapon, but Gohan does help save the day in the fight with Vegeta.
In a weird way, that's also true of the Cell battle. Goku is punished in the same way as Piccolo for weaponizing Gohan, while the goal itself is still accomplished.
In both instances, the final verdict for pinning everything on Gohan seems to be, "Yes, his power is immense and he can pull this off. But you eat shit and die for making do it."
Edited by TobiasDrake on Nov 1st 2018 at 6:42:52 AM
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Wait, are we talking Abridged or real DBZ? Because Abridged he likely knew, since by Lord Slug, he's acutely aware of Gohan's tendency to do that thing. Where he gets really mad and starts beating the guy up
...don't you f***ing ignore me.
Real DBZ I'm sure he got something resembling a play-by-play. Likely from King Kai.
Edited by Larkmarn on Nov 1st 2018 at 2:58:18 PM
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