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unnoun Since: Jan, 2012
#33326: Nov 1st 2018 at 9:52:39 AM

that just trades "why is she even still with him when she can't stand his crappy behavior 99% of the time" for "actually this relationship is a total sham, so why is Chi-Chi even with him at all?".

Being together with some dumbass she was enarmored with decades ago and isn't anymore is a small sacrifice.

That's. Not it at all? Or even slightly?

I mean, she has a smile on her face when she says it, and she says she knows that Goku was always going to train, and she's proud of him for doing it, and she says it's why she loves him, but she pretends she's mad and she lies when says she doesn't want him to go because it's how she shows she cares.

Or something, the exact specifics and details I admittedly dont remember, precisely but. What strikes me is the tone of the whole thing.

After a whole episode and even basically every episode of Super up till that point where Chi-Chi is in more Uber-Bitch mode than she's ever been up to that point, the moment Goku goes with Whis her face softens more than I think I've ever seen her, certainly in every episode up till then, and while Goku talks about how he knows she'll be fine and didn't mean it, and she talks about how she'll be fine and didn't mean it.

Like, at first, tonally it was jarring, and it seemed to bring to mind some spousal or domestic abuse tropes or dynamics with how "Oh she doesnt really mean it guys". I'll admit I was lukewarm on the moment at first, solely in that context.

But then the moment where Piccolo reacts to the "Saiyans like strong women" thing, and how Goku even says that Chi-Chi's strength and aggressiveness is something he "loves" about her, and then when I compare it to how frequently Slap-Slap-Kiss Vegeta and Bulma's relationship is and how frequently they scream at each other.

It makes it seem like on some innate level Saiyans just thrive on conflict, and I honestly find it hilarious.

Edited by unnoun on Nov 1st 2018 at 12:53:51 PM

sgamer82 Since: Jan, 2001
lara16 Since: Mar, 2018
#33328: Nov 1st 2018 at 10:09:02 AM

Well, obviously that's supposed to show us that Chi-Chi loves him, yes. It's just that it's idiotic, unearned, and really doesn't add anything to Chi-Chi's character (because she isn't one). I was trying to come up with something that isn't a bad joke. Which is what their relationship is.

And tbh, Chi-Chi pretending to be loud and naggy just to appeal to Goku is kind of really pathetic. I think I'd hate it even more than her just being like that on her own.

unnoun Since: Jan, 2012
#33329: Nov 1st 2018 at 10:15:23 AM

Well, obviously that's supposed to show us that Chi-Chi loves him, yes. It's just that it's idiotic, unearned, and really doesn't add anything to Chi-Chi's character (because she isn't one).

Little harsh there, bud.

I was trying to come up with something that isn't a bad joke. Which is what their relationship is.

Wow. Even harsher. Ouch.

And tbh, Chi-Chi pretending to be loud and naggy just to appeal to Goku is kind of really pathetic. I think I'd hate it even more than her just being like that on her own.

I mean, I guess you don't have to like it, that's fair.

I love it myself, because it's unique and interesting to me, and I'm not sure I've ever seen anything like it.

Like, it is still a fair question what exactly Chi-Chi gets out of it.

It's not exactly a well-developed or detailed idea, and probably never will be.

But it's still damned interesting to me as an idea.

Edited by unnoun on Nov 1st 2018 at 1:31:18 PM

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#33330: Nov 1st 2018 at 10:55:14 AM

What Chi-Chi gets out of the relationship is one of her driving character motivations in Super. She works hard all days raising kids then she acts bitchy so that Goku can get his rocks off, and he doesn't even reciprocate by working.

Chi-Chi yelling at Goku is entirely to his benefit since he's a Saiyan, so he needs to keep their farm bringing in money in order to balance out all the hard work Chi-Chi's putting in.

unnoun Since: Jan, 2012
#33331: Nov 1st 2018 at 10:58:24 AM

Don't they get their money from Satan now?

Also, isn't she ridiculously permissive with Goten compared to Gohan, training Goten herself and letting him do. Basically whatever the fuck he wants to do with Trunks whenever he wants?

Edited by unnoun on Nov 1st 2018 at 1:59:48 PM

Moth13 Since: Sep, 2010
#33332: Nov 1st 2018 at 10:58:37 AM

I think making Goku work is less about the money (since Satan gave them world saving money) and more about wanting an air of respectability. She wants the world to know they have a "good" "proper" family household.

unnoun Since: Jan, 2012
#33333: Nov 1st 2018 at 11:01:00 AM

I think we might see Trunks studying more than Goten. Like that time he and the Pilaf Gang learned about Multiverse Theory.

(Well, multi-timeline theory, because the Multiverse is an entirely different thing)

Goten mostly just seems to go play with Trunks and get into trouble.

Whether that's finding some gift for Videl or beating poachers within an inch of their lives.

So. What exactly does raising Goten even mean? Because as far as I can tell it just involves feeding him (which, Saiyan appetites, is admittedly not the easiest thing in the world) and then kicking him out of the house to let him do what the fuck ever he wants.

Which in practice seems to mostly be whatever the fuck Trunks wants. Goten's a follower.

Edited by unnoun on Nov 1st 2018 at 2:07:19 PM

LSBK Since: Sep, 2014
#33334: Nov 1st 2018 at 11:14:20 AM

Honestly the Piccolo stuff wouldn't really be so bad if people didn't take TFS as an authority on the series, but like, they do.

And obviously the "Piccolo is Gohan's real dad" stuff didn't start with them, but they keep it going.

I agree with unnoun about people talking about Goku in a reductive manner. Yeah, he's no hero of justice and can be pretty selfish and reckless, but there's more to him than just that.

Edited by LSBK on Nov 1st 2018 at 1:21:03 PM

unnoun Since: Jan, 2012
#33335: Nov 1st 2018 at 11:18:24 AM

I mean, I do 100% think Piccolo is Gohan's dad. Just not his "real" dad.

Gohan can have two dads.

Bigots that think otherwise can get out.

Piccolo and Pan is the greatest fucking thing in this entire franchise.

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#33336: Nov 1st 2018 at 11:19:36 AM

Piccolo is Gohan's uncle at best.

In the Boo Saga, it's made clear that Gohan and Piccolo have not spoken since the Cell Games. Like, at least Goku has the excuse that he's fucking DEAD. What's to stop Piccolo from hopping down off the Lookout to play Backgammon once in a while?

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unnoun Since: Jan, 2012
#33337: Nov 1st 2018 at 11:23:32 AM

In fairness, doesnt Chi-Chi hate him?

Once he moves out of Chi-Chi's house and he and Videl are on their own, Piccolo seems to hang out with them a lot more, but under Chi-Chi's roof and Chi-Chi's rules, Piccolo is persona non grata.

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#33338: Nov 1st 2018 at 11:26:27 AM

But even if that were the case, Gohan knows where Piccolo has been living for the last seven years. He could visit Piccolo if he really wanted to see him that badly. Instead, it feels like neither of them can really be fucking bothered.

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LSBK Since: Sep, 2014
#33339: Nov 1st 2018 at 11:27:52 AM

In fairness, this series has always had this thing in which people who are ostensibly very close together never really put any real effort into seeing each other except occasionally, even though it would be easy for them to do more than that.

unnoun Since: Jan, 2012
#33340: Nov 1st 2018 at 11:29:32 AM

[up][up] Doesnt the Great Saiyaman Saga all but state that Chi-Chi has all but kept Gohan chained to a textbook?

Like, I think even Krillin says that they don't see Gohan at Kame House that often.

Trunks comments about seeing Gohan and liking to see Gohan, but in the Buu Saga, Bulma and Chi-Chi are friends (...for some reason) and Goten and Trunks are best friends.

The sense I get is that, under Chi-Chi alone, the Sons sorta drifted away from basically everyone but Bulma.

...But including Vegeta, he expresses surprise/disappointment in how much Gohan slacked in training, so he probably just locked himself in the Gravity Room during visits.

Or he was going to bargain sales because hes actually a Super Saiyan Shopaholic.

Edited by unnoun on Nov 1st 2018 at 2:39:57 PM

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#33341: Nov 1st 2018 at 11:36:28 AM

While I do agree with the "Piccolo Real Dad" logic, the assertion that Gohan's training under Piccolo was "good fathering" is just wrong. Piccolo was sharpening Gohan as he would a sword; the relationship that developed between the two kind of sprang itself on them both and only really manifested during the Saiyan fight itself and beyond.

This, incidentally, is also why it's not hypocritical for Piccolo to call out Goku for weaponizing Gohan against Cell. Piccolo f*cked up when he employed Operation: Lob A Five-Year-Old At Nappa's Face. He literally died to make that mistake right. It's natural that his perspective on weaponizing children changed as a result. That day at the Cell Games, he saw his own f*ck-up reflected in Goku.

Edited by TobiasDrake on Nov 1st 2018 at 12:36:58 PM

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unnoun Since: Jan, 2012
#33342: Nov 1st 2018 at 11:38:21 AM

In fairness, Piccolo first tried to kill Goku when he was only 3. He was only, like. 8. When he met Gohan.

His perspective on what age is appropriate to train children to kill was probably skewed.

Edited by unnoun on Nov 1st 2018 at 2:39:07 PM

LSBK Since: Sep, 2014
#33343: Nov 1st 2018 at 11:39:05 AM

I mean, Piccolo died but if Gohan wasn't there the world would have been destroyed. Same with what Goku did.

They both died, but they were both also right. I guess you could call it a fuck up from a moral perspective, but I'm not really sure how that works when you are literally talking about the fate of the world. That's not a situation that will ever be reproduced in the real world.

And I'd still say it's fair to argue that Piccolo's actions were the more monstrous between the two. And you could go "but Piccolo was evil then", and that's true, but it doesn't actually make them equivalent.

Edited by LSBK on Nov 1st 2018 at 1:41:35 PM

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#33344: Nov 1st 2018 at 11:43:35 AM

In fairness, Piccolo first tried to kill Goku when he was only 3. He was only, like. 8. When he met Gohan.

His perspective on what age is appropriate to train children to kill was probably skewed.

That's only if you don't count the entire other life that he'd already lived, though.

I mean, Piccolo died but if Gohan wasn't there the world would have been destroyed. Same with what Goku did.

Piccolo didn't live to see that part. All he saw was Gohan, when the time came to jump into the fight, break down crying and run away to hide. He was already dead by the time Gohan actually became useful.

Edited by TobiasDrake on Nov 1st 2018 at 12:43:58 PM

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LSBK Since: Sep, 2014
#33345: Nov 1st 2018 at 11:44:22 AM

Piccolo didn't see it, but he's obviously aware of how it turned out and why. It's just a fact that if Gohan wasn't there, the world would have been destroyed. He didn't defeat either Nappa or Vegeta himself, but he was instrumental in their defeat.

Edited by LSBK on Nov 1st 2018 at 1:45:48 PM

unnoun Since: Jan, 2012
#33346: Nov 1st 2018 at 11:47:05 AM

That's only if you don't count the entire other life that he'd already lived, though.

Didn't he spend most of that life in a rice cooker?

And, it's really unclear at multiple points how much of Majunior is King Piccolo.

Like, it's not nothing, and apparently it's the soul, but like.

Uub has Kid Buu's soul, so I'm not sure how much the soul means either.

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#33347: Nov 1st 2018 at 11:48:37 AM

Is he? When Goku was fighting Vegeta, Piccolo was floating around in the afterlife waiting for God to reconstruct his body. Or starting his trip down Snake Way.

When did they tell him that his decision to train Gohan contributed in a huge way to Vegeta's defeat? Who told him that?

Does he actually know that? Or does he just know that Goku beat Vegeta and saved the Earth? Piccolo has never seen an episode of Dragon Ball, after all.

Edited by TobiasDrake on Nov 1st 2018 at 12:50:44 PM

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LSBK Since: Sep, 2014
#33348: Nov 1st 2018 at 11:50:38 AM

Why wouldn't he learn about it? The basic assumption should not be that Piccolo or any one else who died never heard about what happened after they died. Especially when they went to King Kai's place basically right after.

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#33349: Nov 1st 2018 at 11:51:44 AM

I have never once seen a character after a conflict, go, "Okay. Give me a complete play-by-play of every single thing I missed. Leave out no details."

In any show, really. "We won? Sweet!" is usually sufficient.

The assumption should not be that characters are fully 100% informed of any events they were not present for just because they happen to know people who were.

Edited by TobiasDrake on Nov 1st 2018 at 12:52:36 PM

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LSBK Since: Sep, 2014
#33350: Nov 1st 2018 at 11:52:41 AM

That... seems really disingenuous. We shouldn't have to see the characters talking about things to understand that they do talk about things, especially of this nature.

Hell, he doesn't even need to know the exact details, just that Gohan was important to the conclusion.

Edited by LSBK on Nov 1st 2018 at 1:54:35 PM


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