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Enlong Court Dragon from The Underground Facility Since: May, 2011 Relationship Status: is commanded to— WANK!
Court Dragon
#3301: Feb 14th 2013 at 10:57:46 AM

Drunken Master Roshi

edited 14th Feb '13 10:58:16 AM by Enlong

I have a message from another time...
CobraPrime Sharknado Warning from Canada Since: Dec, 1969 Relationship Status: Robosexual
Sharknado Warning
#3302: Feb 14th 2013 at 11:09:54 AM

Crouching Turtle, Hidden Crane

(A prequel about Roshi and Shen, and how their rivalry grew)

nairoxev Since: Nov, 2011
#3303: Feb 14th 2013 at 11:18:23 AM

I liked the Shadow Dragon arc. Well, I liked the concept of the arc. Because by the time before GT starts the Dragon Balls were already abused to the penultimate exponent and were so cheap of a solution. But the negative energy idea would mean that it wasn't so cheap afterall and that they were going to pay a price for this. And at the end the price is Goku.

.... If only they implemented it correctly.

Ghilz Perpetually Confused from Yeeted at Relativistic Velocities Since: Jan, 2001 Relationship Status: Barbecuing
Perpetually Confused
#3304: Feb 14th 2013 at 2:01:18 PM

[up] Reading it like that makes it sound way more awesome than it really was.

unnoun Since: Jan, 2012
#3305: Feb 14th 2013 at 2:03:56 PM

[up] I think that's the point. The main flaw in GT was more execution than anything. And goddamn was that execution terribad.

GethKnight Since: Apr, 2010
#3306: Feb 14th 2013 at 2:28:53 PM

According to the Dragon Ball wiki:

  • Haze (Two-Star Ball) was born when Upa wished his dad back to life after Mercenary Tao killed him
  • Rage(Five-Star) was when Goku was wished back to life to fight Nappa and Vegeta
  • Oceanus(Six-Star) is Oolong's "panties from a hot babe" wish
  • Naturon (Seven-Star) is when Bulma and Yamcha wished back everyone *Vegeta killed when he went Majinn
  • Nuova (Four-Star) is the King Piccolo one
The most obvious is that he is the dragon of the Four-Star ball, a Dragon ball which has always been associated with Goku and his adopted grandfather, Grandpa Gohan. Another is that the wish made by King Piccolo, unlike all the other wishes that spawned the Shadow Dragons, was a selfish one, and as such would produce less negative energy after being granted.
So that could be why he's the nicer of the bunch.
  • Eis (Three-Star) was born when the memory of Buu was erased from the world's memory.
  • Syn (One-Star) is the one from Mr. Popo reviving everyone killed on Namek by Freiza and his soldiers.

edited 14th Feb '13 2:29:30 PM by GethKnight

unnoun Since: Jan, 2012
#3307: Feb 14th 2013 at 2:29:53 PM

Mr. Popo

This clearly explains everything.

Enlong Court Dragon from The Underground Facility Since: May, 2011 Relationship Status: is commanded to— WANK!
Court Dragon
#3308: Feb 14th 2013 at 2:30:24 PM

...So, Mr. Popo is responsible for the most powerful and evil being in GT.

I have a message from another time...
wanderlustwarrior Role Model from Where Gods Belong Since: Jun, 2009 Relationship Status: What's love got to do with it?
Role Model
#3310: Feb 14th 2013 at 2:56:44 PM

"responsible for"? Surely you mean "is".

Mindwiping everyone was selfish. And wishing back Goku just to kill two people was evil.

Saiga Since: Feb, 2011 Relationship Status: Getting away with murder
#3311: Feb 14th 2013 at 3:05:56 PM

@Enlong But the Namekians did know about the Dragon Balls. That's why the Earth Dragon Balls were designed to scatter so they'd be hard to find, and hopefully only used every 100 years... which makes zero fucking sense, because they could have just increased the "recharge" (stone) period to 100 years. No wishes can be made in that time, so problem solved.

@Nairoxev But there's no in-story justification for why they should have to pay a price in the first place. The heroes did nothing wrong in using the Dragon Balls to save the world/revive victims of the villains.

Hell, considering the Fanon theory that selfish wishes make for nicer dragons, that would completely invalidate the idea that the Shadow Dragons are punishment for abuse of the Dragon Balls.

This confused me greatly because I'm not sure at what point DBZ has ever presented the message that stacking transformations is the wrong way to do things.

It is said immediately after old Kaioshin finishes his ritual and Gohan realises he doesn't need to transform anymore.

Furthermore, it's convenient about how you're forgetting the Graded forms. Super Saiyan Grade II and III, aka "Super Vegeta" and "Super Trunks 2". Those were transformations stacked on top of Super Saiyan, and while Grade II was useful, Goku deemed focusing on balancing the regular Super Saiyan state to be better. And Grade III just plain sucked.

Even the original Super Saiyan state was flawed, and that's why Goku and Gohan had to spend a year reducing the stress on their body to effectively use it. Super Saiyan 2 came around, which was the right way to go after Super Saiyan, but it used up even more energy than Super Saiyan. Then Super Saiyan 3, despite being incredibly powerful, used up so much energy that Goku failed to kill Boo while in a living body. Old Kaioshin's method resulting in Gohan having the power surpassing a Super Saiyan 3, while having none of the stress and energy consumption.

And I was talking more about the Saiyan transformations, but to touch up on the others... you've got the complete wrong idea about Freeza's transformations. They make him weaker. The form he fights Goku in is his true form, and he created the other transformations to help suppress his power. Completely different story. Once he goes through a transformation above his "base" true form (if you count his 100% as that) he begins losing energy too fast to use it effectively.

Cell's transformations were beneficial because they didn't put any strain or energy drain on his body. Simple.


Yes, transformation makes you stronger. That's all your post has argued. If you're not strong enough, you'll need to transform. However, that's still not the right way of doing things. The right way is to be like Gohan: have all that power, but no need to transform to access it.

Oh and Kid/Pure Boo is weaker than Super Boo so that's one case of transformation backfiring.

@Cobra Prime The Dragon Ball wiki is full of shit and you should never trust it. This is just in general, not about Roshi's buffing up in particular.

Anomalocaris20 from Sagittarius A* Since: Sep, 2010 Relationship Status: Love blinded me (with science!)
#3312: Feb 14th 2013 at 3:37:00 PM

Mind you, Super Buu becoming Kid Buu is more like a forced downgrade than an intentional transformation.

You know what would be funny? If people only used the Dragon Balls for selfish wishes, and as a result the "shadow dragons" born from it were all heroic protectors of Earth.

You cannot firmly grasp the true form of Squidward's technique!
wanderlustwarrior Role Model from Where Gods Belong Since: Jun, 2009 Relationship Status: What's love got to do with it?
Role Model
#3313: Feb 14th 2013 at 3:37:31 PM

And Frieza's species' transformations were more from the result of limiting one's power from it's natural latent state, correct?

[up]I'd watch it. Especially if it's just petty greed, and not supervillainy, it'd be funny. Alternatively, it could be "create your own hero", the inverse to "Create Your Own Villain".

edited 14th Feb '13 3:38:49 PM by wanderlustwarrior

Saiga Since: Feb, 2011 Relationship Status: Getting away with murder
#3314: Feb 14th 2013 at 3:44:15 PM

[up] Not his species, just him. We don't know if anyone else in his family used the same transformation system, even if Cold strongly resembles his second form.

But yeah, that's exactly what they are.

[up][up] That does sound pretty funny.

edited 14th Feb '13 3:44:51 PM by Saiga

Anomalocaris20 from Sagittarius A* Since: Sep, 2010 Relationship Status: Love blinded me (with science!)
#3315: Feb 14th 2013 at 3:48:29 PM

I do figure Cold is probably in the second form.

I don't really get the point of transforming down. I mean, Frieza does seem to delight in telling people his power level of 530000 since even that is unfathomably strong, and then telling anyone who defies him that now he's at over 1000000 would just cause total loss of hope, but why have 4 forms? Why not just walk around in his third form boasting about whatever power level that's at and then if he wants to shock them go into fourth?

Though, now there's something that's been bugging me. His power level in his second form is over 1000000. His full power in his final form is 120000000, but he starts off at 1% of it, which is 1200000, which is at MOST only 199999 more than his second form. How does that work as a significant transformation, especially with a third form between those two?

edited 14th Feb '13 3:48:52 PM by Anomalocaris20

You cannot firmly grasp the true form of Squidward's technique!
Saiga Since: Feb, 2011 Relationship Status: Getting away with murder
#3316: Feb 14th 2013 at 3:53:23 PM

but he starts off at 1% of it, which is 1200000

That's a dubline only.

Also, he says he uses the transformations because he can't control himself in his higher forms. As in, he becomes too violent and such.

edited 14th Feb '13 3:53:55 PM by Saiga

Anomalocaris20 from Sagittarius A* Since: Sep, 2010 Relationship Status: Love blinded me (with science!)
#3317: Feb 14th 2013 at 3:54:48 PM

Figures it was a dub thing. What's the truth of the matter?

You know what's one of the stupidest dub-related things?

I like how apparently members of Frieza's race have to have a convulsion in order to speak their native language.

Also, why does Frieza care about how violent he is in his transformed states?

edited 14th Feb '13 3:56:50 PM by Anomalocaris20

You cannot firmly grasp the true form of Squidward's technique!
TobiasDrake (•̀⤙•́) (Edited uphill both ways) Relationship Status: Arm chopping is not a love language!
(•̀⤙•́)
#3318: Feb 14th 2013 at 3:58:52 PM

It is said immediately after old Kaioshin finishes his ritual and Gohan realises he doesn't need to transform anymore.

Furthermore, it's convenient about how you're forgetting the Graded forms. Super Saiyan Grade II and III, aka "Super Vegeta" and "Super Trunks 2". Those were transformations stacked on top of Super Saiyan, and while Grade II was useful, Goku deemed focusing on balancing the regular Super Saiyan state to be better. And Grade III just plain sucked.

Even the original Super Saiyan state was flawed, and that's why Goku and Gohan had to spend a year reducing the stress on their body to effectively use it. Super Saiyan 2 came around, which was the right way to go after Super Saiyan, but it used up even more energy than Super Saiyan. Then Super Saiyan 3, despite being incredibly powerful, used up so much energy that Goku failed to kill Boo while in a living body. Old Kaioshin's method resulting in Gohan having the power surpassing a Super Saiyan 3, while having none of the stress and energy consumption.

And I was talking more about the Saiyan transformations, but to touch up on the others... you've got the complete wrong idea about Freeza's transformations. They make him weaker. The form he fights Goku in is his true form, and he created the other transformations to help suppress his power. Completely different story. Once he goes through a transformation above his "base" true form (if you count his 100% as that) he begins losing energy too fast to use it effectively.

Cell's transformations were beneficial because they didn't put any strain or energy drain on his body. Simple. Yes, transformation makes you stronger. That's all your post has argued. If you're not strong enough, you'll need to transform. However, that's still not the right way of doing things. The right way is to be like Gohan: have all that power, but no need to transform to access it.

Oh and Kid/Pure Boo is weaker than Super Boo so that's one case of transformation backfiring. @Cobra Prime The Dragon Ball wiki is full of shit and you should never trust it. This is just in general, not about Roshi's buffing up in particular.

If the right way is to be like Gohan, then why is it that Gohan accomplishes absolutely nothing? He has his moment of awesome, and then gets absorbed by Buu and they go right back to Transformations and Fusions to fight him. Kaioshin says his piece, sure, but then for all the boasting of how this is the true way to go, Gohan proceeds to be little more than a power boost for Buu.

Likewise, Goku may have determined that focusing on SSJ 1 was better than trying to find a form beyond it, but Vegeta and Trunks were proven right when Gohan did reach a level beyond SSJ 2. Cell was not defeated by a really awesome SSJ 1 who had focused and balanced his power, he was beaten by the SSJ 2 that Vegeta and Trunks had been trying so hard to find. Transformation stacking defeated Cell.

Finally, as to SSJ 3, Goku explicitly states that the reason he couldn't beat Buu in it is because he didn't want to. He threw the first fight to give Goten and Trunks a chance, and he threw the second one because he wanted Vegeta to have a turn. The problem wasn't that SSJ 3 drains energy too quickly to be useful, the problem is that Goku be dumbshit. Yes, it does drain energy quickly, but if Goku's statements are to be taken as true, then it doesn't drain quickly enough to matter.

Various characters may have stated the idea that maybe transformation stacking isn't the best way to go, but the actual fights themselves contradict this. As far as conflict resolution in DBZ goes, transformation nearly always wins the fight, and all other attempts at finding ways to end the fight typically end in failure. It's not about what makes you stronger or what is more efficient or less efficient. The simple matter is what works.

edited 14th Feb '13 3:59:38 PM by TobiasDrake

My Tumblr. Currently side-by-side liveblogging Digimon Adventure, sub vs dub.
Saiga Since: Feb, 2011 Relationship Status: Getting away with murder
#3319: Feb 14th 2013 at 4:12:51 PM

If the right way is to be like Gohan, then why is it that Gohan accomplishes absolutely nothing?

Because Toriyama changed his mind about Gohan being the hero and completely fucked him over.

And no, Vegeta and Trunks are still wrong. Because Grade II/III are less useful than a properly trained Super Saiyan 1. Super Saiyan 2 is just a better way of stacking on another transformation, and even then it uses up too much energy and is the reason for Majin Boo being revived.

Super Saiyan 3 Goku being able to defeat Fat Boo all along is a retcon, and no, he was trying to finish things with Pure Boo. Vegeta tells him to stop holding back, and he says he's being fighting seriously from the beginning. Giving Vegeta a turn was anime only. And Goku underestimated the energy drain, because he thought he could still gather his energy and defeat Boo, only to be completely wrong.

It's not about what makes you stronger or what is more efficient or less efficient. The simple matter is what works.

But that's simply a matter of circumstance. Super Saiyan 3 didn't work either, how many villains did it defeat? Absolutely none. If Goku had Old Kaioshin's power up, he wouldn't have needed to resort to the Genki Dama.

GethKnight Since: Apr, 2010
#3320: Feb 14th 2013 at 4:15:24 PM

The spirit bomb never worked, but that didn't stop Goku. Though it finally worked at the end of the series.

Anomalocaris20 from Sagittarius A* Since: Sep, 2010 Relationship Status: Love blinded me (with science!)
#3321: Feb 14th 2013 at 4:19:59 PM

Oh, by the way, regarding the Shadow Dragons being punishment for overuse and people pointing out that they were never used selfishly, Goku says as much himself when Omega says it's their fault.

You cannot firmly grasp the true form of Squidward's technique!
GethKnight Since: Apr, 2010
#3322: Feb 14th 2013 at 4:22:52 PM

And everyone was blaming Bulma for creating the Dragon Radar. Even Old Kai.

Saiga Since: Feb, 2011 Relationship Status: Getting away with murder
#3323: Feb 14th 2013 at 4:25:56 PM

[up][up] Doesn't change the fact that the story itself and the fanbase act like it was.

TobiasDrake (•̀⤙•́) (Edited uphill both ways) Relationship Status: Arm chopping is not a love language!
(•̀⤙•́)
#3324: Feb 14th 2013 at 4:37:37 PM

It's also worth noting that most of the instances of using the Dragon Balls to save the world were undoing things that happened because of either the abuse or the desire to abuse the Balls anyway.

Pilaf, the Red Ribbon Army, King Piccolo, Vegeta and Nappa, Frieza, up until the Cell Saga, just about everything bad that happened to the world happened because of the Dragon Balls. The abuse was cumulative, especially in Z. If they hadn't been boasting about being able to use the Dragon Balls to resurrect Goku, Vegeta and Nappa never would have come and killed everyone. If Vegeta and Nappa had never heard of the Dragon Balls, Frieza never would have either, and nobody would be tearing apart Namek looking for Dragon Balls to abuse.

The Dragon Ball abuse was a snowball effect that got worse as the series progressed, because of conflicts that either actual or desired abuse of the Dragon Balls brought on to begin with.

My Tumblr. Currently side-by-side liveblogging Digimon Adventure, sub vs dub.
wanderlustwarrior Role Model from Where Gods Belong Since: Jun, 2009 Relationship Status: What's love got to do with it?
Role Model
#3325: Feb 14th 2013 at 4:45:38 PM

I'd noted that the crap they faced was the result of bragging about the balls before, plus, Gero and his Androids were offshoots of the Red Ribbon Army. They and Cell only got as powerful as they did because of the reviving of Goku and bringing greater threats. And didn't Babadi just come to Earth because of the amount of power there? Plus, Buu was freed as a result of people who were revived by wishes, namely Vegeta.

It's all the balls fault.


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