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Moth13 Since: Sep, 2010
#33176: Oct 14th 2018 at 4:33:37 PM

There was also the King Piccolo fight. Tien saved Goku's life by using flight but it drained the last of his energy to do so.

HandsomeRob Leader of the Holey Brotherhood from The land of broken records Since: Jan, 2015
Leader of the Holey Brotherhood
#33177: Oct 14th 2018 at 4:38:45 PM

Daizenshuu 7 specifies that, to completely cancel out your opponent's attacks, you have to be outputting twice their ki at the area of contact. The implication being that if you're outputting below twice their ki, your passive defenses are progressively less effective and you take progressively more damage (outputting 180% of their ki might be a Cell-style "you call that a punch? My head barely moved!" No-Sell; outputting 100% of their ki would be more like a regular guy getting punched in the face by another regular guy; and so on).

Wait. We have actual numbers on how much power you have to have to cancel an attack? How seriously are we taking this, since I know that the Daizenshuu has sometimes been ignored if it contradicts Toriyama or the Manga?

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fasoman1996 Google "big ears" from Argentina (A.K.A. Naziland) Since: Dec, 2014 Relationship Status: Baby don't hurt me!
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#33178: Oct 14th 2018 at 4:41:34 PM

[up][up][up] Possibly a return of "Like a Bitch" joke

Uni cat
unnoun Since: Jan, 2012
#33179: Oct 14th 2018 at 4:59:29 PM

So, does hiding or suppressing your power count?

Because I seem to remember Gohan and Krillin having to jump instead of fly on Namek instead they couldn't suppress their power to hide from Scouters and still be able to fly.

Vegeta says "I'll lower my power to the minimum" when he has Krillin blow a hole in him.

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#33180: Oct 14th 2018 at 5:05:27 PM

Presumably, Bukujutsu expends ki. The same as firing a Kamehameha or Masenko or Makankosappo. It's a ki-based technique that expels ki to use. The faster you fly, the more ki you spend, with variations on the technique being more or less ki-efficient.

So, naturally, when your ki is exhausted, you don't have any ki to expend on Bukujutsu.

Similarly, using enough ki to power Bukujutsu may not be conducive to keeping your battle power suppressed low enough to be unnoticeable to Scouters.

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Saiga Since: Feb, 2011 Relationship Status: Getting away with murder
#33181: Oct 14th 2018 at 6:10:41 PM

That's definitely the case, as both Gohan and Kuririn were discovered by Vegeta because they chose to fly and couldn't suppress their ki while doing so.

HandsomeRob Leader of the Holey Brotherhood from The land of broken records Since: Jan, 2015
Leader of the Holey Brotherhood
#33182: Oct 14th 2018 at 6:12:22 PM

Also, when Cell was running from the Z Warriors, he hoofed it rather than flying.

So yeah, using Bukujutsu uses enough ki to be detected.

This is why the Kintoun / Flying Nimbus is superior.tongue

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fasoman1996 Google "big ears" from Argentina (A.K.A. Naziland) Since: Dec, 2014 Relationship Status: Baby don't hurt me!
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#33183: Oct 19th 2018 at 7:20:22 AM

I wonder if we should move Android 18's character sheet to Dragon Ball Z Abridged - Supporting Characters.

Or is it too soon?

Edited by fasoman1996 on Oct 19th 2018 at 11:20:47 AM

Uni cat
sgamer82 Since: Jan, 2001
#33184: Oct 19th 2018 at 7:49:05 AM

I'd say wait until the Buu saga starts and she actually becomes a supporting character.

KnownUnknown Since: Jan, 2001
#33185: Oct 19th 2018 at 2:01:17 PM

I mean, if Videl is on there...

sgamer82 Since: Jan, 2001
#33186: Oct 19th 2018 at 2:14:05 PM

...she probably shouldn't be either, since her role in the series thus far is commenting on Gohan's sweet hair and teaching Mr Satan about Harry Potter

Edited by sgamer82 on Oct 19th 2018 at 3:16:24 AM

Ghilz Perpetually Confused from Yeeted at Relativistic Velocities Since: Jan, 2001 Relationship Status: Barbecuing
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#33187: Oct 19th 2018 at 6:00:25 PM

The only criteria is having three tropes for a character. She can be there.

Since 18 is no longer an antagonist as of 60, moving her to Supporting Character is fine.

Edited by Ghilz on Oct 19th 2018 at 9:02:51 AM

sgamer82 Since: Jan, 2001
#33188: Oct 19th 2018 at 6:03:45 PM

In videl's case I meant supporting character. Until she's formally introduced in Buu I'd call her a minor character, personally

fasoman1996 Google "big ears" from Argentina (A.K.A. Naziland) Since: Dec, 2014 Relationship Status: Baby don't hurt me!
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#33189: Oct 19th 2018 at 6:05:56 PM

Satan is also in the supporting cast for some reason.

I wonder how was Vegeta handled during Season 2. He was an antagonist at one point after all so did he had his character sheet there?

Edited by fasoman1996 on Oct 19th 2018 at 10:06:17 AM

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#33190: Oct 19th 2018 at 7:05:19 PM

As of the end of the Cell arc, Mr. Satan is more of a supporting character than Android 18. 18 is a resolved antagonist. Driving the conflict was her and 17's jobs until Cell showed up to drop the Eviler than Thou card on their faces. She has done nothing to support the cast.

It's only in the Buu arc that she comes back as a supporting protagonist.

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#33191: Oct 19th 2018 at 7:38:54 PM

18 was a bit more proactive and got a bit more development in Abridged than in canon. Her and Krillin fighting Semiperfect Cell had more depth here, and focused a bit more on their relationship.

fasoman1996 Google "big ears" from Argentina (A.K.A. Naziland) Since: Dec, 2014 Relationship Status: Baby don't hurt me!
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#33192: Oct 19th 2018 at 7:44:46 PM

I like to think that 18 had the same reaction Krillin had when he found out she still is intact down below.

She found him cute and even fell for his bravery like he was smitten by her strong personality and looks. So when she decided to make true of her word and see he was packing, i think in her mind she said this:

18: "Just went from a 9 to a 10"

Edited by fasoman1996 on Oct 19th 2018 at 11:45:14 AM

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#33193: Oct 19th 2018 at 7:48:55 PM

Yeah, one thing Abridged actually did do better (though only because Toriyama avoids writing romance) was making 18 just as proactive in her attraction to Krillin as he was in his attraction to her. Canon still has her make the first move, but Abridged really makes it explicit what her feelings are on him at all times.

Edited by PushoverMediaCritic on Oct 19th 2018 at 7:49:18 AM

fasoman1996 Google "big ears" from Argentina (A.K.A. Naziland) Since: Dec, 2014 Relationship Status: Baby don't hurt me!
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#33194: Oct 19th 2018 at 7:55:16 PM

Krillin is also the only person she is never a sarcastic bitch with. The only other one is 16 when he is injured.

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#33195: Oct 19th 2018 at 8:31:25 PM

That she liked Krillin doesn't change the fact that her role is a strictly antagonistic one, save for a short-lived Enemy Mine when Cell shows up that ends in her and 17 getting ganked.

Depending on what part of the arc you're at, she is either the villain or the Plot Coupon. At no point, however, is she supporting the other cast. Not until Buu.

Edited by TobiasDrake on Oct 19th 2018 at 9:32:54 AM

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#33196: Oct 19th 2018 at 10:21:58 PM

At no point, however, is she supporting the other cast.

... That's not what a supporting character is. It has nothing to do with supporting the cast. Or with being on the main character's side. One can be a supporting character and an antagonist by just being a minor antagonist.

And yes, you can be a living Plot Coupon and still be a supporting character.

Edited by Ghilz on Oct 19th 2018 at 1:24:34 PM

randomness4 Ghost '11 from The Land of Inconvenience Since: Sep, 2011
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#33197: Oct 19th 2018 at 10:54:24 PM

She became a minor antagonist...she didn't start as one.

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#33198: Oct 19th 2018 at 11:14:01 PM

She only becomes "minor" when Cell shows up to absorb her. There is a tiny window of time between 17's fight with Piccolo and 18 being absorbed in which 17 and 18 are no longer villains trying to kill the protagonists.

16 is a supporting character because he's just along for the ride and to kill Son Goku. 17 and 18, however, are very much treated as Bad Guys Gonna Kill Us up until a third of the way through the island battle, and it's just a hop, skip, and a jump from there to 18's absorption.

That isn't 18 shifting to a supporting role. It's just a brief Enemy Mine. The Cell arc presents a three-pronged conflict between the protagonists, the Androids, and Cell in much the same way that Namek presented a three-pronged conflict between the Earthlings, Vegeta, and Frieza.

Edited by TobiasDrake on Oct 19th 2018 at 12:15:33 PM

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Ghilz Perpetually Confused from Yeeted at Relativistic Velocities Since: Jan, 2001 Relationship Status: Barbecuing
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#33199: Oct 19th 2018 at 11:25:02 PM

[up] None of that has anything to do with what "Supporting Character" means.

A supporting character is just a character who isn't a major part of the plot, but isn't a cameo or bit part. That's literally it. 18's "support" of the protagonist, or lack of thereof, is irrelevant.

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#33200: Oct 19th 2018 at 11:28:58 PM

You're missing the point. 17 and 18 are a major part of the plot. Cell's arrival does not make them irrelevant; the only time they are not a direct threat to the protagonists is during the brief Enemy Mine.

There are two enemy factions, each as dangerous as the other, until one literally devours the other and takes over as the dominant villain. 17 and 18 are never minor. They never stop moving the plot with their own two hands until they're eaten. They are never supporting cast.

Until Buu, anyways.

Edited by TobiasDrake on Oct 19th 2018 at 12:29:24 PM

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