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LSBK Since: Sep, 2014
#32701: Sep 25th 2018 at 8:41:55 AM

It's moot anyway because learning their names only happened for the readers. There's been no indication in story that they learned them, or even care to do so.

TobiasDrake (•̀⤙•́) (Edited uphill both ways) Relationship Status: Arm chopping is not a love language!
(•̀⤙•́)
#32702: Sep 25th 2018 at 8:43:33 AM

Did they need to learn them?

I actually don't remember if the manga canonically established that their memories of their past lives were erased, or if that's just something the fandom latched onto? Or anime filler?

I don't know. I know it's common knowledge that 17 and 18 had their minds wiped and woke up with no identity but the ones Gero programmed them with, but I don't remember where that bit of info actually came from. I don't remember the manga going into a lot of detail about them beyond "Babymaker still intact", as TFS so eloquently put it.

Edited by TobiasDrake on Sep 25th 2018 at 9:43:51 AM

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LSBK Since: Sep, 2014
#32703: Sep 25th 2018 at 8:45:17 AM

I mean, if they do know it's obvious they don't care because they've clearly either never told anyone what their real names are/don't care about still being called 17 and 18.

sgamer82 Since: Jan, 2001
#32704: Sep 25th 2018 at 8:51:14 AM

The Abridged Androids have made references to their pre-Android pasts (like 17 suggesting 18's attraction to Krillin was a jab at their parents) they we can probably assume their memories are intact.

TobiasDrake (•̀⤙•́) (Edited uphill both ways) Relationship Status: Arm chopping is not a love language!
(•̀⤙•́)
#32705: Sep 25th 2018 at 8:54:14 AM

The Abridged Androids certainly seem cool with it. 18 likes to use her designation for jokes.

"What's your number?" "18!"

And that's really the most important part at the Watsonian level. I'm just saying, from a writing perspective, it kind of wasn't cool of Toriyama to continue identifying her as Gero's Product after the timeskip rather than giving her an actual name.

Of course, she would go on to also be made to Stay in the Kitchen when he came back to writing years later so maybe 18 isn't as much of an exception to "Toriyama sucks at writing women" as fans sometimes claim.

Edited by TobiasDrake on Sep 25th 2018 at 9:54:43 AM

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slimcoder The Head of the Hydra Since: May, 2013
The Head of the Hydra
#32706: Sep 25th 2018 at 9:01:40 AM

Let’s not make this a “cause she’s a woman” thing because 17 is also never referred to by his real name either.

Edited by slimcoder on Sep 25th 2018 at 9:01:58 AM

"I am Alpharius. This is a lie."
Moth13 Since: Sep, 2010
#32707: Sep 25th 2018 at 9:04:25 AM

Well that's mostly because 17 vanished after he was eaten, never to be seen again until the Tournament of Power happened. (and GT but we don't talk about that)

Eriorguez Since: Jun, 2009
#32708: Sep 25th 2018 at 9:05:16 AM

He gave energy to the Spirit Bomb...

Moth13 Since: Sep, 2010
#32709: Sep 25th 2018 at 9:08:19 AM

I know. But that was a brief cameo where there was no room for anyone to refer to him as anything, so I didn't count it.

Arha Since: Jan, 2010
#32710: Sep 25th 2018 at 9:24:17 AM

Why is it not okay for 17 and 18 to not give a damn about being turned into androids? Is there some reason they have to be traumatized?

WillKeaton from Alberta, Canada Since: Jun, 2010
#32711: Sep 25th 2018 at 9:31:40 AM

They're not traumatized because they don't remember what Gero did to them. They'd like to know their pasts, who they were before, but they can't remember having a life prior to Gero so they're not obsessed with finding out.

Arha Since: Jan, 2010
#32712: Sep 25th 2018 at 9:41:23 AM

So they should care, but they don't, and they don't care enough about not caring to change their names just to spite a dead guy?

HandsomeRob Leader of the Holey Brotherhood from The land of broken records Since: Jan, 2015
Leader of the Holey Brotherhood
#32713: Sep 25th 2018 at 9:44:07 AM

[up][up]

We don't really know that. It's not impossible, but Toriyama probably never considered it, and he's clearly not interested in capitalizing on it either.

Of course, she would go on to also be made to Stay in the Kitchen when he came back to writing years later so maybe 18 isn't as much of an exception to "Toriyama sucks at writing women" as fans sometimes claim.

I don't even know how to look at that any more. I hate it because it makes Krillin look bad. 18 may have just been a lucky break where the demands of the plot superseded any inherent sexism that might have prevented him from doing anything more with her, but once she was no longer needed as a villain, he was free to find (very dumb) excuses to keep her out of the story to railroad the plot in the direction he wanted it to go, logic (as usual) be damned.

Edited by HandsomeRob on Sep 25th 2018 at 10:46:31 AM

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fasoman1996 Google "big ears" from Argentina (A.K.A. Naziland) Since: Dec, 2014 Relationship Status: Baby don't hurt me!
Google "big ears"
#32714: Sep 25th 2018 at 10:13:45 AM

I think they do remember their past and it wasn't very nice for them. It's just that their general stoic nature makes them feel indifferent about them, although they might have internalized their problems and haven't discussed them with their peers.

This video from MasakoX about Android 18 talks about why she is a lot less active and why she spends most of her time with her family. According to him, he believes that she wanted to settle down and i think it is a plausible theory. She seems a lot more happy in Super than she was in Z, even if she was already married in the Buu saga

Uni cat
HandsomeRob Leader of the Holey Brotherhood from The land of broken records Since: Jan, 2015
Leader of the Holey Brotherhood
#32715: Sep 25th 2018 at 10:19:20 AM

[up]

I know that video, and I admit, it's a compelling argument.

But that still doesn't excuse the thing with her and Krillin in Resurrection F.

No matter what way we try to justify it (and I've tried, because I hate hearing that garbage out of Krillin's mouth), it's just Toriyama being lazy for the sake of focusing on a specific group of characters. 18 is just where it's most obvious...though it's still nigh impossible to justify Roshi being there instead of Yamcha.

One Strip! One Strip!
TobiasDrake (•̀⤙•́) (Edited uphill both ways) Relationship Status: Arm chopping is not a love language!
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#32716: Sep 25th 2018 at 10:27:04 AM

Well that's mostly because 17 vanished after he was eaten, never to be seen again until the Tournament of Power happened. (and GT but we don't talk about that)

That, yes. 17 dropped off the face of the universe and when he did come back, he was Super Saiyan Blue-tier strength via Mountain Training because reasons.

18 stuck around in the show to be Krillin's Baby-Mama and have a brief arc where she triumphantly managed to outwit Goku and Vegeta's adolescent children before they could accidentally obliterate her, and then be told to Stay in the Kitchen when Frieza came back.

She also competes in the Tournament of Power, but she is not Super Saiyan Blue-tier despite having access to adequate training partners and methods far in excess of anything 17 could even dream of.

Edited by TobiasDrake on Sep 25th 2018 at 11:27:34 AM

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HandsomeRob Leader of the Holey Brotherhood from The land of broken records Since: Jan, 2015
Leader of the Holey Brotherhood
#32717: Sep 25th 2018 at 10:31:43 AM

...

Well, she was already weaker than 17 (in-universe because Gero thought it'd make her easier to control, but I still question that), but I admit that 17 getting as strong as he did by ranging the hell out of a park is very nebulous.

We just have to assume that 17 did his bullshit training constantly, while 18 didn't get serious until around the time of the tournament.

This is me trying to give them the benefit of the doubt however. Because even I get sick and tired of stating because she's a girl.

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slimcoder The Head of the Hydra Since: May, 2013
The Head of the Hydra
#32718: Sep 25th 2018 at 10:43:48 AM

Well she was encumbered by a sprain ankle.

Seriously a sprained ankle was treated as a relatively serious dehabilitating injury despite others fighting on with broken bones or Hell their entire bodies fucked.

Plus her showing in the To P was pretty unimpressive compared to her brother.

"I am Alpharius. This is a lie."
sgamer82 Since: Jan, 2001
#32719: Sep 25th 2018 at 10:44:49 AM

And remember 17 could do his bullshit training constantly. Unlimited stamina and all.

fasoman1996 Google "big ears" from Argentina (A.K.A. Naziland) Since: Dec, 2014 Relationship Status: Baby don't hurt me!
Google "big ears"
#32720: Sep 25th 2018 at 10:50:02 AM

I'm pretty sure 18 in the manga did worse than Anime Krillin.

At least in the anime she got a nice moment versus the worst evil Dragon Ball has ever created. Yes, i'm talking about Ribrianne.

But if you ask how 17's training somehow got him around SSB/Freeza level, i have this old but gold TFS clip for you

Uni cat
Moth13 Since: Sep, 2010
#32721: Sep 25th 2018 at 10:51:51 AM

18 had a lot of cool moments in the Tournament of Power. Literally her best showing since she battled Vegeta.

slimcoder The Head of the Hydra Since: May, 2013
The Head of the Hydra
#32722: Sep 25th 2018 at 10:57:21 AM

Considering she had to be rescued the most times out of her entire team that’s pretty sad.

Plus again sprained ankle, now that was some old bullshit right there.

We don’t know even how she got it in the first place I think.

"I am Alpharius. This is a lie."
unnoun Since: Jan, 2012
#32723: Sep 25th 2018 at 11:00:11 AM

I feel like Gero should have done something to the skeleton or musculature to make that not possible.

HandsomeRob Leader of the Holey Brotherhood from The land of broken records Since: Jan, 2015
Leader of the Holey Brotherhood
#32724: Sep 25th 2018 at 11:03:23 AM

He probably did...

...to 17.

One Strip! One Strip!
fasoman1996 Google "big ears" from Argentina (A.K.A. Naziland) Since: Dec, 2014 Relationship Status: Baby don't hurt me!
Google "big ears"
#32725: Sep 25th 2018 at 11:04:56 AM

17 and 18 are a bit scrawny so i guess they can get seriously injured if they are careless.

But a minor ankle injury? And she complains about bullet wounds ¬¬

Uni cat

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