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Arha Since: Jan, 2010
#32551: Sep 20th 2018 at 6:34:49 PM

Having a cooldown period that doesn't match the dissipation of evil energy or whatever isn't necessarily a plot hole. For example, it could take one year to gather the energy for a year from ~mystic sources~ but five years to get rid of the ~spooky wish mojo~. Kami may not have known about this flaw in the system because he didn't understand it well enough. After all, the Earth dragonballs are kind of a flawed copy of the original system, which is a much weaker form of the original original system, so he may have messed up when making them. With wishes not being made at nearly the pace in the present that they were in the past, this could have easily been overlooked.

I mean, I get that this is fanwank, but it's not a totally unworkable idea.

PS I have never seen GT and have no interest in ever doing so and the whole idea sounds kind of dumb to me, so I'm merely arguing hypotheticals.

HandsomeRob Leader of the Holey Brotherhood from The land of broken records Since: Jan, 2015
Leader of the Holey Brotherhood
#32552: Sep 20th 2018 at 6:36:08 PM

The dragons being full of shit and coming about because of an unforeseen design flaw could work.

I mean, the dragon radar probably wasn't a thing Kami was considering when he made them. I don't think it was supposed to be easy to find the balls and make new wishes as soon as the time limit was up.

Edit: [up] puts it much better than I did.

Edited by HandsomeRob on Sep 20th 2018 at 7:36:26 AM

One Strip! One Strip!
VeryMelon Since: Jul, 2011 Relationship Status: Anime is my true love
#32553: Sep 20th 2018 at 6:36:22 PM

It's a classic case of some fans only liking a thing because its cool to them, versus other fans who want the idea to be consistent with what came before.

Moth13 Since: Sep, 2010
#32554: Sep 20th 2018 at 6:36:28 PM

There's still the problem of trying to line up the dragons with wishes even though more than seven wishes were made, so they just ignore a whole bunch of them.

There were only seven dragonballs so some wishes had to get shafted. That's how it goes sometimes.

The Shadow Dragons as a concept also fail at basic logic. The idea behind it is that the Dragon Balls require a cooldown period between uses to dissipate all the negative energy that granting wishes stores up. Because Goku and his friends have used them so much over the years, they haven't been able to properly dissipate that negative energy.

Here's the thing.

The Dragon Balls already have a f*cking cooldown period. For one year after granting a wish, they enter a dormant state and turn into featureless spherical rocks.

Wish energy and Nnnnnnegative Energy having separate cooldowns isn't really illogical, it's just not very neat or cohesive.

Turns out, you were supposed to be making evil and selfish wishes on the Dragon Balls, because that apparently makes good heroic Shadow Dragons!

Nova Shenron was less of an asshole, but he was still destroying a city.

HandsomeRob Leader of the Holey Brotherhood from The land of broken records Since: Jan, 2015
Leader of the Holey Brotherhood
#32555: Sep 20th 2018 at 6:39:06 PM

It's a classic case of some fans only liking a thing because its cool to them, versus other fans who want the idea to be consistent with what came before.

I admit, I've been in the because I think it's cool club for a long time. I'm coming around to the be fucking consistent club though.

I wish we could have both, or at least could have had them earlier.

One Strip! One Strip!
randomness4 Ghost '11 from The Land of Inconvenience Since: Sep, 2011
Ghost '11
#32556: Sep 20th 2018 at 6:43:56 PM

[up][up]Or they could've brought up multiple wishes that were of the same level...

Instead of just the ones made during the series.

Rules of the Internet 45. Rule 45 is a lie. Check out my art if you notice.
unnoun Since: Jan, 2012
#32557: Sep 20th 2018 at 6:44:05 PM

I mean, it's true that the idea of the Shadow Dragons as a punishment per se is kinda dumb and lame.

Like, instead of the negative and positive whatever, I'm thinking.

Like, even the "selfless" or "good" wishes are still selfish because of how arbitrary they are?

They only get used to help this certain set of assholes we the audience happen to follow, even though we get told there's other people in this world and setting that suffer and die all the time, sometimes even as a result of these assholes.

I dont think all of King Piccolo's victims got brought back, just Chiaotzu, Roshi and Krillin. Could be wrong, but that's what I remember.

Nappa vaporized a city.

...And, like, Bulma gathered the Dragon Balls just to give a wish or three to whoever of her exclusive friendgroup of assholes won the bingo tournament at her birthday.

lara16 Since: Mar, 2018
#32558: Sep 20th 2018 at 6:44:38 PM

I remember one of the Shadow Dragons being basically a good guy because he was born from an evil wish (King Piccolo wishing for his youth, I think?). And then I guess the rest of them were evil because they were born from good wishes? I'm sure they tried to explain that, but does anyone remember why like... that was a thing?

unnoun Since: Jan, 2012
#32559: Sep 20th 2018 at 6:46:08 PM

Didnt they say that Oolong's panties wish was a "good" wish?

Still cant figure that one out.

Edited by unnoun on Sep 20th 2018 at 9:50:14 AM

HandsomeRob Leader of the Holey Brotherhood from The land of broken records Since: Jan, 2015
Leader of the Holey Brotherhood
#32560: Sep 20th 2018 at 6:46:32 PM

I dont think all of King Piccolo's victims got brought back, just Chiaotzu, Roshi and Krillin. Could be wrong, but that's what I remember.

Actually, everyone who was killed by King Piccolo and his minions were brought back. That was a specific condition of the wish.

One Strip! One Strip!
LSBK Since: Sep, 2014
#32561: Sep 20th 2018 at 6:46:37 PM

Like, even the "selfless" or "good" wishes are still selfish because of how arbitrary they are? They only get used to help this certain set of assholes we the audience happen to follow, even though we get told there's other people in this world and setting that suffer and die all the time, sometimes even as a result of these assholes.

I mean, that sounds like a pretty awful way of looking at altruism vs. selfishness. If I save someone from a car wreck tomorrow that doesn't suddenly become selfish just because somewhere else in the world another person actually does die in a car wreck.

I don't know what that fallacy is called, but I don't think it getting an endorsement would actually be an improvement over the GT explanation.

Edited by LSBK on Sep 20th 2018 at 8:46:45 AM

unnoun Since: Jan, 2012
#32562: Sep 20th 2018 at 6:48:02 PM

Yeah, but you don't have a magic wish granting dragon that could make it so nobody dies in car wrecks ever again.

There's additional responsibilities that come from omnipotence.

MorningStar1337 The Encounter that ended the Dogma from 🤔 Since: Nov, 2012
The Encounter that ended the Dogma
#32563: Sep 20th 2018 at 6:49:03 PM

@unnown AFAIK, that wish was made to preemptively waste the balls so that the Red Ribbon Army (or was it the Pilaf gang?) could not finish their Evil Plan.

Edited by MorningStar1337 on Sep 20th 2018 at 6:52:40 AM

lara16 Since: Mar, 2018
#32564: Sep 20th 2018 at 6:50:08 PM

Wasn't the Shadow Dragon from Oolong's wish just kinda hanging out in the ocean not really doing much? I don't remember her being evil much, but then I haven't watched GT in years. (and never will again)

unnoun Since: Jan, 2012
#32565: Sep 20th 2018 at 6:50:18 PM

I thought it was to stop Pilaf.

Who, in hindsight.

I mean, maybe the Rice Dynasty would be better off than the Furry dynasty.

MorningStar1337 The Encounter that ended the Dogma from 🤔 Since: Nov, 2012
The Encounter that ended the Dogma
#32566: Sep 20th 2018 at 6:51:34 PM

[up] it's been a while since I saw Pre-Z Dragon Ball.

LSBK Since: Sep, 2014
#32567: Sep 20th 2018 at 6:53:57 PM

Yeah, but you don't have a magic wish granting dragon that could make it so nobody dies in car wrecks ever again. There's additional responsibilities that come from omnipotence.

But the Dragon Balls explicitly aren't omnipotent. That they can't fix everything, everywhere, forever, isn't a reason to not use them to do good things when presented with them.

Edited by LSBK on Sep 20th 2018 at 8:54:05 AM

unnoun Since: Jan, 2012
#32568: Sep 20th 2018 at 6:57:16 PM

Yeah, but you can still do a good thing with them every year instead of whenever you and your in group are personally inconvenienced.

LSBK Since: Sep, 2014
#32569: Sep 20th 2018 at 6:59:42 PM

I still don't really like that reasoning, and I'd hate to see something present that as the "right" view.

Again, I guess just personal opinion, but that just sounds like a terrible aesop.

Saiga Since: Feb, 2011 Relationship Status: Getting away with murder
#32570: Sep 20th 2018 at 7:03:33 PM

@Arha The problem is that GT had God know about the need for negative energy, as well as knowing how long it would take (100 years). They say that is the reason he made the dragon balls scatter, ignoring that already had a reason and the massive plot hole it creates.

The Dragon Balls having an unknown cooling off period could work. GT did things in the worst possible way it could think of.

unnoun Since: Jan, 2012
#32571: Sep 20th 2018 at 7:06:28 PM

isn't a reason to not use them to do good things when presented with them

I mean, to bring to this back, ever since the Dragon Radar got made, every year they're presented with a chance to do those good things.

In abridged!16's words:

"You think you're better than everyone else, but there you stand: the good man doing nothing."

Saiga Since: Feb, 2011 Relationship Status: Getting away with murder
#32572: Sep 20th 2018 at 7:08:37 PM

Abridged 16 is a colossal idiot who should not be listened to.

slimcoder The Head of the Hydra Since: May, 2013
The Head of the Hydra
#32573: Sep 20th 2018 at 7:16:39 PM

We’ll he was clearly malfunctioning.

Gero was absolutely crap at programming,

Edited by slimcoder on Sep 20th 2018 at 7:33:31 AM

"I am Alpharius. This is a lie."
WillKeaton from Alberta, Canada Since: Jun, 2010
#32574: Sep 20th 2018 at 7:21:31 PM

Is Gero a first name or a last name?

Also, someone else was complaining earlier about how the thread wouldn't appear on the watched thread list, even though they were subscribed to the thread? Cuz that's happening to me now.

Arha Since: Jan, 2010
#32575: Sep 20th 2018 at 7:27:25 PM

Saiga: Yeah, I figured there was probably some kind of hole in my argument, which is why I had that 'I don't know the source material directly' disclaimer.


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