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Kamiccolo Since: May, 2018
#32151: Sep 15th 2018 at 5:07:14 PM

Because Raditz comes right out in the original manga and explains that he's in the business of trading planets to other races, which implied to me at least that he and the other Saiyans were working for someone else as part of a large organization. I guess Toriyama intended that they were just doing it on their own as a way of making of living with their race wiped out, but fighting the Saiyans and then the guy controlling the Saiyans always made so much sense to me that it's weird to think that it was retconned in.
Well, it doesn't really make any sense, because the original arc never implied there was a "guy controlling the Saiyans." Raditz introduces the planet trade as something that the Saiyans do. Vegeta is the one who's introduced as its leader. The destroyer of worlds who even the highest gods fear, the strongest warrior of the strongest warrior race, and the most powerful being in the universe. The Saiyans in this arc act autonomously and without regard for any commitments; which makes the later retcon that they were actually committing a pseudo rebellious act against a higher authority pretty awkward.

Also, in the Saiyan arc Vegeta explicitly states that he's going after the dragon balls so he can become immortal and enjoy an eternity of violence and battle forever. In the Freeza arc he suddenly changes it to needing immortality so he could beat Freeza.

The PTO doesn't make a lot of sense to me given how empty the DB universe is. Like dude, there aren't even thirty sentient races out there, what are you doing wiping out entire client bases every twenty years or so? That's no good for business!
That's a Super (anime?) only line that is best ignored in the context of the original story. Anyway, that's Freeza's model because Toriyama based him on "land sharks" who took advantage of Japan's housing bubble, not on any actual real world emperor. He also stated that Freeza's gang is not "an "army" so much as convenient followers." He's basically just a particularly strong space pirate who kills people and takes their stuff, not really thinking about it any more than that.

Edited by Kamiccolo on Sep 15th 2018 at 5:09:27 AM

Ghilz Perpetually Confused from Yeeted at Relativistic Velocities Since: Jan, 2001 Relationship Status: Barbecuing
Perpetually Confused
#32152: Sep 15th 2018 at 5:07:33 PM

[up][up] Basic math on their feats makes them FTL.

Edited by Ghilz on Sep 15th 2018 at 8:09:44 AM

Berserker88 Since: Dec, 2010
#32153: Sep 15th 2018 at 5:07:49 PM

Or that it just never came up. I can definitely see the Saiyans choosing to omit that fact when there's no real reason to mention it in the first place. To be fair, I'm fully admitting that the existence of a larger organization was only my interpretation at the time and not supported by any real evidence.

Edited by Berserker88 on Sep 15th 2018 at 5:10:03 AM

unnoun Since: Jan, 2012
#32154: Sep 15th 2018 at 5:09:39 PM

In fairness to Super, not that I even particularly want to, that's 30 races after decades of Frieza running wild.

By the time Super starts, Frieza's only been dead for, what, 10 years?

And he did what he does for decades before that point.

Basic math on their feats makes them FTL.

What feats are those? Genuinely curious.

Edited by unnoun on Sep 15th 2018 at 8:09:57 AM

Kamiccolo Since: May, 2018
#32155: Sep 15th 2018 at 5:10:09 PM

[up][up]Nappa and Vegeta don't mention it to each other in their conversation on that planet they massacred, even though with later context, Vegeta's order to Nappa would have been an order to defy Freeza. Nor does Nappa suggest using the dragon balls to defeat Freeza, or breeding powerful hybrids to defeat Freeza. They just overall act like he doesn't exist. Same thing for even internal monologues; Vegeta thinks to himself that since he's the strongest in the universe, he could not possibly lose to Kakarot.

Edited by Kamiccolo on Sep 15th 2018 at 5:09:37 AM

Arha Since: Jan, 2010
#32156: Sep 15th 2018 at 5:10:12 PM

Basic math and DBZ do not play nice together. The characters are way weaker than their fights would imply. Goddamn Roshi was a planet buster during the first tournament we saw.

Ghilz Perpetually Confused from Yeeted at Relativistic Velocities Since: Jan, 2001 Relationship Status: Barbecuing
Perpetually Confused
#32157: Sep 15th 2018 at 5:11:13 PM

There's a lot of inconsistency in the Saiyan arc when you frame it in lights of other, later revelation.

Like Freeza employing soldiers who are too weak to use Ki beams - they need guns.

Yet Nappa and Vegeta have access to convenient and disposable Saibamen. Why isn't Freeza fielding Saibamen by the hundreds? They can use Ki. They are objectively better than the average Freeza soldier.

Basic math and DBZ do not play nice together. The characters are way weaker than their fights would imply. Goddamn Roshi was a planet buster during the first tournament we saw.

Like a certain long video essay points out, that's a long issue of DBZ, despite the work assuring us everyone is stronger, the feats haven't gotten more impressive than since the day Roshi blew up the moon.

It's people doing the same thing and the show/manga going "Trust us, this is so much more than the last time you saw this"

Edited by Ghilz on Sep 15th 2018 at 8:12:15 AM

unnoun Since: Jan, 2012
#32158: Sep 15th 2018 at 5:11:26 PM

Well. Moon buster.

And the Kamehameha is stronger than base power anyway.

[up] Supposedly the average Frieza Soldier is 2000.

They use the blasters because. I dunno. Maybe the blasters are just stronger than the ki blasts they can do on their own.

And I thought the Saibamen were as strong as they were because Earth had good soil?

Edited by unnoun on Sep 15th 2018 at 8:12:44 AM

Weirdguy149 Former King from Lumiose City Since: Jul, 2014 Relationship Status: I'd jump in front of a train for ya!
Former King
#32159: Sep 15th 2018 at 5:12:25 PM

Because he's a racist against Saiyans? Maybe he thinks of Saibamen as worthless.

The legend has returned.
Kamiccolo Since: May, 2018
#32160: Sep 15th 2018 at 5:13:01 PM

Like Freeza employing soldiers who are too weak to use Ki beams - they need guns.
That's not really a matter of strength, as we know from the Android arc that external weaponry, even those available to Freeza's organization, can be more powerful than ki blasts. And somehow just as condensed, but that's a different issue. Nor does an inability to shoot ki blasts denote weakness- cf. Yajirobe.
Yet Nappa and Vegeta have access to convenient and disposable Saibamen. Why isn't Freeza fielding Saibamen by the hundreds? They can use Ki. They are objectively better than the average Freeza soldier.
Probably because they're not sapient and can't really be trusted to do anything autonomously. Also, Nappa says that Saibamen's strength depends on the soil they're grown in- presumably they'd be weaker normally.
[up] Supposedly the average Frieza Soldier is 2000.
Nope. Abridged-only line. They probably made that extrapolation from the scene at the Namekian village. Some of Freeza's Elite Mooks laugh at the three Namekian warriors who have their power levels suppressed to 1,000; then the same warriors turn up their powers to 3,000 and kill the mooks effortlessly. So then they'd have to be between 1,000 and 3,000... so voila, 2,000. That does neglect however that the thugs personally accompanying Freeza are probably a lot stronger than the average. Those two scouts that Gohan and Krillin one-shotted, for example, probably had power levels below 1,000 since Gohan and Krillin were stated to have power levels of 1,500 when they killed them each in one hit.

Edited by Kamiccolo on Sep 15th 2018 at 5:18:48 AM

Berserker88 Since: Dec, 2010
#32161: Sep 15th 2018 at 5:14:25 PM

Good example of Toriyama forgetting shit: I'm pretty sure he completely forgot about Roshi blowing up the moon even though a character in the next tournament holds a grudge against him specifically for that. Not to mention the implications for poor Monster Carrot...

And then they just retconned something in about Kami restoring it or some such, which to be fair, is fully within the god of the Earth's power and responsibility to do.

Edited by Berserker88 on Sep 15th 2018 at 5:15:07 AM

Ghilz Perpetually Confused from Yeeted at Relativistic Velocities Since: Jan, 2001 Relationship Status: Barbecuing
Perpetually Confused
#32162: Sep 15th 2018 at 5:16:12 PM

That's not really a matter of strength, as we know from the Android arc that external weaponry, even those available to Freeza's organization, can be more powerful than ki blasts. And somehow just as condensed, but that's a different issue.

There's no indication the beam cannons are in anyway more powerful than what we see anyone do.

Probably because they're not sapient and can't really be trusted to do anything autonomously.

Not backed up by the work. Saibamen are smart enough to understand and follow orders. They also fight intelligently and unlike Freeza soldiers do not fear death and will kamikaze to take out a foe.

There's no indication that Freeza's soldier have any edge, at least when it comes to grunt work

Arha Since: Jan, 2010
#32163: Sep 15th 2018 at 5:17:22 PM

But Kami being able to casually create planet scale objects basically undermines the entire need for Frieza's business operation! If it's that easy then planets have no value.

This series is terrible at economics.

unnoun Since: Jan, 2012
#32164: Sep 15th 2018 at 5:18:37 PM

I mean, Kami seems to be the only planetary Kami, even though there should be more.

Kamiccolo Since: May, 2018
#32165: Sep 15th 2018 at 5:19:04 PM

There's no indication the beam cannons are in anyway more powerful than what we see anyone do.
No indication that they're weaker, either. And the guidebooks do state that they're useful.
Not backed up by the work. Saibamen are smart enough to understand and follow orders. They also fight intelligently and unlike Freeza soldiers do not fear death and will kamikaze to take out a foe.
They don't fight intelligently at all, and can't even speak. They're clearly animal-like in intelligence. They couldn't operate advanced machinery or communicate with anyone, making them useless for autonomous work. Their only benefit is being strong, but that is also offset by their strength being dependent on the soil in which they are planted.
And then they just retconned something in about Kami restoring it or some such, which to be fair, is fully within the god of the Earth's power and responsibility to do.
This actually ties into later lore in Toriyama's interviews which state that gods, specifically the Kaios and Kaioshins, can create planets/stars and seed life on them. Presumably that's why gods of individual planets do the same thing on a smaller scale, restoring natural satellites.

Edited by Kamiccolo on Sep 15th 2018 at 5:20:26 AM

unnoun Since: Jan, 2012
#32166: Sep 15th 2018 at 5:20:14 PM

Also, there's years where Kami could have used the dragon balls to do the moon thing.

Ghilz Perpetually Confused from Yeeted at Relativistic Velocities Since: Jan, 2001 Relationship Status: Barbecuing
Perpetually Confused
#32167: Sep 15th 2018 at 5:24:15 PM

They don't fight intelligently at all

They parry, they dodge, they use techniques, they even attack when an opponent is not paying attention. Seems like intelligent fighting to me.

They're clearly animal-like in intelligence.

Animals who understand the concept of a tournament, rounds, and Vegeta's orders.

Their only benefit is being strong, but that is also offset by their strength being dependent on the soil in which they are planted.

I don't think having a green house full of fertile ground to make literally unfinite soldiers is beyond the grasp of a guy who owns at least 448 planets named after himself.

Edited by Ghilz on Sep 15th 2018 at 8:25:57 AM

unnoun Since: Jan, 2012
#32168: Sep 15th 2018 at 5:25:56 PM

To be fair, understanding Vegeta's orders could just be natural selection.

Saiga Since: Feb, 2011 Relationship Status: Getting away with murder
#32169: Sep 15th 2018 at 5:34:07 PM

Saying Toriyama forgot the moon destruction is pretty silly when he continuee to reference it and later has Saiyan arc Piccolo easily blow it up.

The real answer is that Toriyana doesn't care about realistic scale.

That's why it is similarly silly to apply real world math to their feats. They are never said to be faster than light, so we shouldn't assume that they are.

On the Saibaimen: they're not better than Freeza's soldiers. They were described as rivaling Raditz only in strength, they can't talk, we have no idea of their abilities beyond that. But there's nothing stopping Freeza from employing both.

Edited by Saiga on Sep 15th 2018 at 10:36:58 PM

Gilphon (4 Score & 7 Years Ago)
#32170: Sep 15th 2018 at 5:34:44 PM

Things really would've been better if Freiza had been the first planet buster. In a world where the Roshi and Piccolo hadn't somehow managed to destroy the same moon on two separate occasions, and we didn't have filler where Vegeta blows up planets, planet buster status would've been a better way to sell just how much stronger Frieza was than everyone else than the arbitrarily high power levels we got.

Edited by Gilphon on Sep 15th 2018 at 8:37:56 AM

randomness4 Ghost '11 from The Land of Inconvenience Since: Sep, 2011
Ghost '11
#32171: Sep 15th 2018 at 5:36:38 PM

He was the 1st planet buster.

Rules of the Internet 45. Rule 45 is a lie. Check out my art if you notice.
Saiga Since: Feb, 2011 Relationship Status: Getting away with murder
#32172: Sep 15th 2018 at 5:39:40 PM

[up][up] I prefer having moon busting be a thing prior to the series reaching planet busting level. More sense of progression, and moon to planet is still such a huge jump.

Ghilz Perpetually Confused from Yeeted at Relativistic Velocities Since: Jan, 2001 Relationship Status: Barbecuing
Perpetually Confused
#32173: Sep 15th 2018 at 5:39:50 PM

Clearly he wasn't. Piccolo can casually blow up the moon and this doesn't even drain him. and plenty of planets are the size of our or less moon.

More sense of progression, and moon to planet is still such a huge jump.

It really isn't. Because there's no minimum size for a planet.

Edited by Ghilz on Sep 15th 2018 at 8:39:49 AM

randomness4 Ghost '11 from The Land of Inconvenience Since: Sep, 2011
Ghost '11
#32174: Sep 15th 2018 at 5:41:34 PM

Pluto?

Rules of the Internet 45. Rule 45 is a lie. Check out my art if you notice.
Ghilz Perpetually Confused from Yeeted at Relativistic Velocities Since: Jan, 2001 Relationship Status: Barbecuing
Perpetually Confused
#32175: Sep 15th 2018 at 5:42:21 PM

Pluto is smaller than the moon. Pluto is 2/3 the size of the moon. Eris is even smaller.

What makes a planet is its orbit, not its size.

And that's putting aside that if Piccolo and Roshi can vaporize the moon, they both can render the earth inhabitable. They might not be able to vaporize the planet, but certainly wipe out all life on it if not crack the damn thing. They can certainly shift its orbit easily.

At that point, planet "busting" becomes moot.

Edited by Ghilz on Sep 15th 2018 at 8:46:11 AM


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