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BlackYakuzu94 CHADhan Player. from Easy Coast/NY Since: May, 2013 Relationship Status: Longing for my OTP
CHADhan Player.
#31876: Sep 10th 2018 at 1:41:54 PM

So people shouldn't keep trying to improve?

I knew somebody was going to take this the wrong way lol. I was fucking waiting for it.

No, I did not say that, please stop putting words in my mouth. What I said is that Tien should stop being bitter and angry over something he has no control over. He's never going to be as strong as Goku or Vegeta or any new villain they face, yes it sucks, but he's not a Saiyan and he can't suddenly become a Saiyan. So instead of whining over something he has no control over, he should focus on what he can do, no matter how limited it is.

And there's a very clear difference between a character trying against impossible odds and a character becoming angry and bitter about their place that they have no control over. One is somewhat admirable the other is a pathetic loser who needs to get over themselves. Abridged!Tien falls in the latter category.

As for Super, I'm not beating a dead horse. If you're apart of the "Power Levels are bullshit, fuck'em" crowd. Fine, cool. But please stop insisting that people who criticize that stuff are just "angry fans" instead of people with their own opinion on Super that doesn't necessarily coincide with yours. Opinion Myopia is ugly.

A lazy millennial who's good at what he does.
Ghilz Perpetually Confused from Yeeted at Relativistic Velocities Since: Jan, 2001 Relationship Status: Barbecuing
Perpetually Confused
#31877: Sep 10th 2018 at 1:44:36 PM

he can't suddenly become a Saiyan

Well he can. It's called the Dragonballs.

randomness4 Ghost '11 from The Land of Inconvenience Since: Sep, 2011
Ghost '11
#31878: Sep 10th 2018 at 1:45:09 PM

No, he'd be dead...

Rules of the Internet 45. Rule 45 is a lie. Check out my art if you notice.
BlackYakuzu94 CHADhan Player. from Easy Coast/NY Since: May, 2013 Relationship Status: Longing for my OTP
CHADhan Player.
#31879: Sep 10th 2018 at 1:55:46 PM

I mean, if you're gonna say that. It makes him even more pathetic for constantly complaining anyway.

A lazy millennial who's good at what he does.
Darthwyn leader of Inherit from The void Since: Feb, 2016 Relationship Status: You cannot grasp the true form
leader of Inherit
#31880: Sep 10th 2018 at 1:57:46 PM

Dragon Ball online did have the dragon balls as a means to allow humans to have access to the power of a Saiyan.

"Shall I use you, or make you mine... I'm not so sure what I'll do." - Dorthy
Saiga Since: Feb, 2011 Relationship Status: Getting away with murder
#31881: Sep 10th 2018 at 2:00:18 PM

Now, he'll fake a stomach injury to get out of fighting someone at the Tenkaichi Budokai, but that's when there's nothing but money and ego on the line. It's not the same thing.

The first time he faked a stomach injury was to get out of fighting Cell again. It's literally the same thing.

He only fought Cell because he was being an idiot and thought he could win. Once he realized the truth, he wanted no bar of it. Throwing 16's head is brave, but he did that because he wanted to help without risking his safety too much.

Again Boo, once again he thought his tricks would work. He befriended Boo purely to save his own life, and was even going to take back his request for Boo to stop killing people if necessary to save his skin.

He definitely is someone who developed over time rather than always bring the kind of person who would give money to Goku or motivate the Earthlings to contribute to the Genki Dama.

I imagine the issue is that Toriyama just isn't good at thinking of things for them to do, but also seems to be bad at easing them out of the plot, as they keep showing up well past the point when they are even effective asworfs.

That is definitely not the case. Toriyama has shown that he can make weaker characters matter without the contrivances and lapses in internal consistency that Super used. It's very clear that he simply doesn't feel the need to create things for them at this stage. It's just not necessary, the story does not revolve around them.

Edited by Saiga on Sep 10th 2018 at 7:03:56 PM

HandsomeRob Leader of the Holey Brotherhood from The land of broken records Since: Jan, 2015
Leader of the Holey Brotherhood
#31882: Sep 10th 2018 at 2:03:43 PM

Again Boo, once again he thought his tricks would work. He befriended Boo purely to save his own life, and was even going to take back his request for Boo to stop killing people if necessary to save his skin.

What! When was that ever said?

Dick move Satan! Dick move!

One Strip! One Strip!
Saiga Since: Feb, 2011 Relationship Status: Getting away with murder
#31883: Sep 10th 2018 at 2:05:51 PM

He asks Boo to stop eating people, Boo initially looks pissed, so Satan gives an 'or not!' response but Boo agrees anyway

HandsomeRob Leader of the Holey Brotherhood from The land of broken records Since: Jan, 2015
Leader of the Holey Brotherhood
#31884: Sep 10th 2018 at 2:08:27 PM

[up]

...That seems like a heat of the moment thing said out of fear because he wasn't sure if his gamble was working, but it's not really a thing worth having an argument over.

It does seem like something Satan would say at that point (where he hadn't quite undergone his full development yet).

One Strip! One Strip!
BlackYakuzu94 CHADhan Player. from Easy Coast/NY Since: May, 2013 Relationship Status: Longing for my OTP
CHADhan Player.
#31885: Sep 10th 2018 at 2:09:28 PM

I mean, I'm not gonna start saying Satan is the best of people. But I don't think self-preservation against a cosmic horror monster counts as "cowardice"

A lazy millennial who's good at what he does.
Saiga Since: Feb, 2011 Relationship Status: Getting away with murder
#31886: Sep 10th 2018 at 2:11:10 PM

Depends on how you define it. I just think people are overstating his character pre-development.

Kamiccolo Since: May, 2018
#31887: Sep 10th 2018 at 2:11:10 PM

The "Super threw away power levels" meme is not really consistent with what actually happens in Super. I mean, yes, there's stupid bullshit like Krillin making Goku go Blue, or Kale beating Blue, getting stronger, and losing horribly 2-1 against Red, or Zamasu becoming a million times stronger by sitting around for 17 years, or Roshi decking Frost, or Piccolo losing a Zarbon tier guy, or Krillin getting damaged by a bullet, or Freeza crushing Gohan despite explicitly having a power level of 1.3 million, or Trunks going from moderately stronger than Dabra to smacking around Rose Black five minutes later... but that was all in Z too. More specifically, the anime. There we had stuff like base Goku beating up Ultimate Gohan, going SS2, and then getting toyed with by Super Buu; Pure Buu being simultaneously stronger than Buuhan and weaker than Buutenks via separate statements and also within rivaling range of SS2 Vegeta and Fat Buu; Krillin being able to hold his own against Imperfect Cell better than Kamiccolo and #17; Yamcha and Tenshinhan holding their own against the Cell Juniors two minutes before one tanks a Final Flash from MSS Vegeta like so much air; Gohan being simultaneously helpless against 3rd form Freeza yet capable of smacking around 50% Freeza; Broly being both completely immune to SS Vegeta's attacks yet staggered and wounded by a kick from base Goku; Androids 14 and 15 being on par with base Vegeta/Trunks AND SS Vegeta/Trunks; and so on.

Toei does this in all of their productions; let's not even get into GT. It's not a creative choice, it's laziness. It's absolutely nothing new and very likely none of it comes from Toriyama's bare story outline. The Super manga, by contrast, which is both more barebones and more closely supervised by Toriyama (some pages even written and drawn directly by him), keeps things pretty restricted. The only BS in there is #17 getting to SS 3 level by bumming around the forest for 20 years, and even then, there's at least some justification (both because he's not Blue level and because it was explained he was sparring with the Cell Juniors).

Sigilbreaker26 Serial Procrastinator Since: Nov, 2017
Serial Procrastinator
#31888: Sep 10th 2018 at 2:14:59 PM

I've said multiple times that he shouldn't have kept Tien and Yamcha around in the Cell arc, since plot wise they add nothing aside from Tien's intervention which could be written around anyway (by having Vegeta and Trunks arrive, what, 30 seconds earlier?). The only thing Yamcha did is get jobbed, which is beyond pointless anyway for him.

Toriyama doesn't bother dragging out Oolong and Puar either even though their skill sets are vastly, vastly superior to "another fighter who isn't in the top 3 strongest here, or even close". Heck, Oolong would probably add more to the team dynamic than either Yamcha or Tien. They both shouldn't even be in the arc; they serve no purpose there, Toriyama isn't clever enough to think of good uses for either and DBZ's story format doesn't offer good room for many characters anyway (Krillin was basically useless in the Namek arc as well and for a good while he was basically the captain of Team Not-Assholes).

note 

And on this note, the only moments I've seen Tien mention being grumpy about so last season are this blink-and-you'll-miss-it comment right here about being irrelevant and his angry "Fuck Power levels, Fuck Super Saiyans" rant before plowing Semiperfect Cell into the ground - which came directly after Cell tried to push his buttons. I honestly can't think of any other examples than those two.

[up] I guess you haven't seen Ultra Instinct Roshi yet...

Edited by Sigilbreaker26 on Sep 10th 2018 at 9:31:32 AM

"And when the last law was down and the Devil turned round on you, where would you hide, the laws all being flat?"
Kamiccolo Since: May, 2018
#31889: Sep 10th 2018 at 2:24:06 PM

Jiren held back so as not to kill Roshi, miscalculated how hard he was to hit for his power level, adjusted appropriately after a few seconds, used a tiny bit more power, and then one-shotted him. Seems simple enough.

PushoverMediaCritic I'm sorry Tien, but I must go all out. from the Italy of America Since: Jul, 2015 Relationship Status: watch?v=dQw4w9WgXcQ
I'm sorry Tien, but I must go all out.
#31890: Sep 10th 2018 at 2:26:20 PM

None of that is even implied. It's never implied by anyone that Jiren was holding back in any way whatsoever, and Roshi beating Kahseral and doing so well against Jiren is solely attributed to Roshi's pure martial artist skill being somewhat like Ultra Instinct.

Sigilbreaker26 Serial Procrastinator Since: Nov, 2017
Serial Procrastinator
#31891: Sep 10th 2018 at 2:33:15 PM

At the very least it's a similar level of dumb as the Blue Goku V Krillin. We know Krillin's not powerful enough to force Goku Blue. Goku's holding back.

But it looks so, so, so dumb.

"And when the last law was down and the Devil turned round on you, where would you hide, the laws all being flat?"
randomness4 Ghost '11 from The Land of Inconvenience Since: Sep, 2011
Ghost '11
#31892: Sep 10th 2018 at 2:37:01 PM

Soooo...did it also make Roshi stronger, or would it not look as cool?

Rules of the Internet 45. Rule 45 is a lie. Check out my art if you notice.
Saiga Since: Feb, 2011 Relationship Status: Getting away with murder
#31893: Sep 10th 2018 at 2:45:25 PM

[up][up] except Jiren doesnt have transformations, so it's not like he's using an inappropriate form.

It's still dumb, but nothing on the level of Goku v Kuririn

fasoman1996 Google "big ears" from Argentina (A.K.A. Naziland) Since: Dec, 2014 Relationship Status: Baby don't hurt me!
Google "big ears"
#31894: Sep 10th 2018 at 2:56:52 PM

Why can Krillin force Goku go blue? You see, you are not dealing with the average baldman warrior anymore...

Edited by fasoman1996 on Sep 10th 2018 at 6:56:32 AM

Uni cat
PushoverMediaCritic I'm sorry Tien, but I must go all out. from the Italy of America Since: Jul, 2015 Relationship Status: watch?v=dQw4w9WgXcQ
I'm sorry Tien, but I must go all out.
#31895: Sep 10th 2018 at 2:59:27 PM

That is a deliberate and gross misreading of the scene. Krillin pushed Goku to use Super Saiyan 1 through trickery, but Goku went Super Saiyan Blue of his own accord to test Krillin's resolve when faced with god-tier opponents.

LSBK Since: Sep, 2014
#31896: Sep 10th 2018 at 3:02:57 PM

I mean, does pushing him to Super Saiyan make sense either?

Saiga Since: Feb, 2011 Relationship Status: Getting away with murder
#31897: Sep 10th 2018 at 3:05:27 PM

No it isn't. I didnt say he forced Goku to use Blue. Its just ridiculous to use a form and then not actually fight anywhere near power. Completely meaningless. Changing the colour of his hair does nothing without the corresponding strength of the form.

Kuririn pushing SS 1 out of Goku is BS in itself, and more specific than Jiren using an unknown level of power on Roshi. We KNOW Jiren was holding back, because he's surprised to see Roshi dodge the first hit, then easily knocks him out after adjusting.

Edited by Saiga on Sep 10th 2018 at 8:05:12 PM

PushoverMediaCritic I'm sorry Tien, but I must go all out. from the Italy of America Since: Jul, 2015 Relationship Status: watch?v=dQw4w9WgXcQ
I'm sorry Tien, but I must go all out.
#31898: Sep 10th 2018 at 3:06:52 PM

The narrative of their fight was that Krillin was weaker than base Goku but able to momentarily catch him off guard and push him out of bounds by using tricks. Goku's only way of stopping Krillin's blasts was with a large burst of ki, so he went Super Saiyan 1. Maybe Kaioken would've worked just as well, but Goku doesn't really use Kaioken in base anymore.

Unfortunately, this is still the abridged thread, and Super talk is still off-topic unless it's regarding the TFS shorts.

randomness4 Ghost '11 from The Land of Inconvenience Since: Sep, 2011
Ghost '11
#31899: Sep 10th 2018 at 3:18:51 PM

If Kriller is able to catch this Karrot off guard...something is wrong.

Rules of the Internet 45. Rule 45 is a lie. Check out my art if you notice.
Zelenal The Cat Knows Where It's At from Purrgatory Since: Jul, 2009 Relationship Status: Maxing my social links
The Cat Knows Where It's At
#31900: Sep 10th 2018 at 4:18:50 PM

I really hate how Ressurection 'F' started this whole "the characters can be caught off guard and be hurt by attacks infinitely weaker than them" bullshit.

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