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Ghilz Perpetually Confused from Yeeted at Relativistic Velocities Since: Jan, 2001 Relationship Status: Barbecuing
Perpetually Confused
#31851: Sep 10th 2018 at 11:34:24 AM

Not to say this isn't true now, but if your claiming Mr. Satan was always like this, I disagree. He became a better person during the Buu saga, which is when he became bearable.

He still showed up to fight Cell, after Cell blew half a city up on Camera, and murdered a reporter and an entire town.

Sure, he might not completely grasp what he was facing, but it's not like huge crowds showed up to watch Cell either. Clearly most regular humans were terrified of him.

Edited by Ghilz on Sep 10th 2018 at 2:36:39 PM

BlackYakuzu94 CHADhan Player. from Easy Coast/NY Since: May, 2013 Relationship Status: Longing for my OTP
CHADhan Player.
#31852: Sep 10th 2018 at 11:41:25 AM

It's funny how Tien being so bitter about being irrelevant reflects so much about his fanbase, a bunch of bitter fans who are upset about a situation they have no control over and instead of making peace with it (Like Krillin and Yamcha have), they wallow in their bitterness.

It's funnier because Krillin and Yamcha have far more reasons to be bitter, they never measured up to the stronger fighters while Tien was at least the third strongest fighter behind Goku and Piccolo at some point. And yet, they never let it bother them too much.

A lazy millennial who's good at what he does.
LSBK Since: Sep, 2014
#31853: Sep 10th 2018 at 11:42:07 AM

[up][up]Because that's him being an idiot. He doesn't get courage points for that.

HandsomeRob Leader of the Holey Brotherhood from The land of broken records Since: Jan, 2015
Leader of the Holey Brotherhood
#31854: Sep 10th 2018 at 12:21:20 PM

It's funnier because Krillin and Yamcha have far more reasons to be bitter, they never measured up to the stronger fighters while Tien was at least the third strongest fighter behind Goku and Piccolo at some point. And yet, they never let it bother them too much.

I think it's because he was a contender that he's so bitter. As I said, among the trio of Tien, Yamcha and Krillin (because nobody cares about Chiaotzu), he's the only one of the three who wasn't a joke when he fought Goku. He stood a chance, but then it wasn't even a few days later that he was rendered as irrelevant as the rest of them. He trains constantly and has nothing to show for it. Anyone would be a little bitter.

He wants to be a big player again. It's like he said in this version before flying off to try and stop Cell: I am not a spectator! I am a warrior!

But he is a Spectator. He's just unwilling to accept it. Because if he did, then what has he been doing this whole time?

One Strip! One Strip!
slimcoder The Head of the Hydra Since: May, 2013
The Head of the Hydra
#31855: Sep 10th 2018 at 12:45:16 PM

Being a spectator.

Edited by slimcoder on Sep 10th 2018 at 12:44:47 PM

"I am Alpharius. This is a lie."
BlackYakuzu94 CHADhan Player. from Easy Coast/NY Since: May, 2013 Relationship Status: Longing for my OTP
CHADhan Player.
#31856: Sep 10th 2018 at 12:49:33 PM

A normal person would realize their limitations and respectfully accept their position, like Yamcha and Krillin did.

Tien futilely trying to pretend like he can keep up with everyone just makes him look even more pathetic.

A lazy millennial who's good at what he does.
Ghilz Perpetually Confused from Yeeted at Relativistic Velocities Since: Jan, 2001 Relationship Status: Barbecuing
Perpetually Confused
#31857: Sep 10th 2018 at 12:54:51 PM

[up] So people shouldn't keep trying to improve?

Moth13 Since: Sep, 2010
#31858: Sep 10th 2018 at 12:55:49 PM

It's actually very badass when a weaker person steps up and contributes despite being far below everyone else.

HandsomeRob Leader of the Holey Brotherhood from The land of broken records Since: Jan, 2015
Leader of the Holey Brotherhood
#31859: Sep 10th 2018 at 1:04:57 PM

It's just really rare in Dragonball. Hell, nearly every time someone weaker tries to do something, it fails, with a small handful of exceptions (Tien actually being one of them, which probably fuels his desire to do more).

I imagine the issue is that Toriyama just isn't good at thinking of things for them to do, but also seems to be bad at easing them out of the plot, as they keep showing up well past the point when they are even effective as worfs.

Though I suspect maybe he just likes atypical characters and character designs as well, and maybe Tien is too...pedestrian for him.

One Strip! One Strip!
Arha Since: Jan, 2010
#31860: Sep 10th 2018 at 1:06:26 PM

The problem isn't that he's trying to improve, the problem is that his struggle to improve dominates his life and makes him unhappy when he fails to reach his impossible goals.

Ghilz Perpetually Confused from Yeeted at Relativistic Velocities Since: Jan, 2001 Relationship Status: Barbecuing
Perpetually Confused
#31861: Sep 10th 2018 at 1:09:13 PM

I imagine the issue is that Toriyama just isn't good at thinking of things for them to do, but also seems to be bad at easing them out of the plot, as they keep showing up well past the point when they are even effective as worfs.
It's honestly been one of the bits I enjoyed about Super. Just throwing the power level shit out of the nearest window and going "You want to see Roshi do cool shit? Here's Roshi doing cool shit"

Like, I get it makes a bunch of people mad, but frankly, I don't care. when it means the characters who'd stand doing fuck all get to do cool shit.

Like sure, whatever, makes no sense 17 suddenly is Super Saiyan Blue tier out of nowhere while having done fuck all. But it means I get to watch 17 do cool shit? Fuck it, I'll take it.

Edited by Ghilz on Sep 10th 2018 at 4:09:03 AM

slimcoder The Head of the Hydra Since: May, 2013
The Head of the Hydra
#31862: Sep 10th 2018 at 1:13:09 PM

It would have made more sense if they had stuck with a typical tournament format.

Just have the guys fight guys in their own weight-classes.

"I am Alpharius. This is a lie."
PushoverMediaCritic I'm sorry Tien, but I must go all out. from the Italy of America Since: Jul, 2015 Relationship Status: watch?v=dQw4w9WgXcQ
I'm sorry Tien, but I must go all out.
#31863: Sep 10th 2018 at 1:15:14 PM

I mean, they did.

Ghilz Perpetually Confused from Yeeted at Relativistic Velocities Since: Jan, 2001 Relationship Status: Barbecuing
Perpetually Confused
#31864: Sep 10th 2018 at 1:17:59 PM

It would have made more sense if they had stuck with a typical tournament format.

Just have the guys fight guys in their own weight-classes.

I disagree? I like the idea that someone weaker can take out someone stronger by luck/surprise/tactic/what have you.

I dislike Dragonballs "My Power Level Makes Me Immune to everything Weaker than Me!"

I wish Super would've gone further discarding that, though one could argue it'd stop being Dragonball. And fair enough on that, but I find it saps a lot of the energy from the show.

I loved Roshi trying the Evil Containment Wave on Frost, for example. That was awesome.

Edited by Ghilz on Sep 10th 2018 at 4:20:54 AM

LSBK Since: Sep, 2014
#31865: Sep 10th 2018 at 1:19:07 PM

Tien wanting to improve is fine. Him acting all smug for being better than Yamcha and Krillin (and he shouldn't even be better than the latter, but we all know how that argument goes) just makes him look like an asshole when things have reached a point where they're all in the same position anyway.

That's for the abridged mind you, I don't recall "canon" Tien really doing that.

As for Super, my position has always been "If you don't care and can just enjoy it, great, just don't expect other people to not care."

[up]But that's not what Super actually did? Or rather, whenever Super tried to do something like that, it was usually had glaring flaws that were easy to pick apart.

Edited by LSBK on Sep 10th 2018 at 3:23:21 AM

slimcoder The Head of the Hydra Since: May, 2013
The Head of the Hydra
#31866: Sep 10th 2018 at 1:21:07 PM

It just kinda saps all the tension & possible enjoyment when you know all Jiren has to do is breath heavily & BLAM!

99% of all contestants have been eliminated.

"I am Alpharius. This is a lie."
Ghilz Perpetually Confused from Yeeted at Relativistic Velocities Since: Jan, 2001 Relationship Status: Barbecuing
Perpetually Confused
#31867: Sep 10th 2018 at 1:23:07 PM

[up][up] & [up]

No argument there. Like I said, I'd wish Super would've gone further in jetisonning the whole power level shit rather than back and forth on it. I'm not gonna pretend the entire show is good. It's got a lot of bad (Same as Z does), but I'll give props where it deserves it.

HandsomeRob Leader of the Holey Brotherhood from The land of broken records Since: Jan, 2015
Leader of the Holey Brotherhood
#31868: Sep 10th 2018 at 1:25:41 PM

[quoteblock]]The problem isn't that he's trying to improve, the problem is that his struggle to improve dominates his life and makes him unhappy when he fails to reach his impossible goals.[[/quoteblock]]

More or less. At least, that's how it seems to be with Abridged Tien. I'm not sure if Canon Tien is that obsessed.

It would have made more sense if they had stuck with a typical tournament format.

Just have the guys fight guys in their own weight-classes.

Honestly, I get the feeling things wouldn't have been much better with a regular tournament. Toriyama always seems to default to including them in order to show how strong someone else is. I think that with a regular tournament, they'd have been eliminated even faster.

When it comes to Goku, Vegeta, Piccolo, Krillin and a few flavours of the month, you can count on him to put in the effort. With those other guys, they are in and out as quickly as possible both due to how he's scaled things, and also because he just doesn't have any interest in them.

One Strip! One Strip!
LSBK Since: Sep, 2014
#31869: Sep 10th 2018 at 1:25:53 PM

I mean, what does ''jettison power level shit" even mean? What "any character can potentially beat any other character with the right circumstances" or something like that?

I fail to see why that's inherently better, because when most things involving ki/magic/superpowers try and do something like that, it usually becomes incredibly contrived and convoluted to wank off certain characters for their "smarts" or "skills". The go to example being Batman.

Edited by LSBK on Sep 10th 2018 at 3:27:23 AM

randomness4 Ghost '11 from The Land of Inconvenience Since: Sep, 2011
Ghost '11
#31870: Sep 10th 2018 at 1:26:36 PM

Yeah, make the fans happy.

Anger those fans hardcore.

Rules of the Internet 45. Rule 45 is a lie. Check out my art if you notice.
Moth13 Since: Sep, 2010
#31871: Sep 10th 2018 at 1:29:33 PM

Tien wanting to improve is fine. Him acting all smug for being better than Yamcha and Krillin (and he shouldn't even be better than the latter, but we all know how that argument goes) just makes him look like an asshole when things have reached a point where they're all in the same position anyway.

I thought Tien was being smug about not being a moron, not about being stronger than Yamcha and Krillin.

LSBK Since: Sep, 2014
#31872: Sep 10th 2018 at 1:31:54 PM

[up]I've always thought it's been both. And him being smarter than them is weird too, but, eh.

Ghilz Perpetually Confused from Yeeted at Relativistic Velocities Since: Jan, 2001 Relationship Status: Barbecuing
Perpetually Confused
#31873: Sep 10th 2018 at 1:32:21 PM

The problem with a regular tournament format is that by default the earlier matches don't matter.

Especially in Dragonball where one can call who's making the finals from the start of the Tournament. Heck, the Piccolo Jr. Saga all but spells that Piccolo Jr. and Goku will be in the finale. None of the other contestants matter. And they know it (Except Tien).

The big free for all at least has an element of randomness. Who will be facing who. Sure, you know it's gonna be Jiren V Goku for (most) of the ending, but the interplay of who helps who, who faces who, who eliminates who keeps things more interesting. Especially since two people clashing doesn't have to end with one eliminating the other. They can separate and fight someone else, etc...

randomness4 Ghost '11 from The Land of Inconvenience Since: Sep, 2011
Ghost '11
#31874: Sep 10th 2018 at 1:36:02 PM

So it being randomness is the only interesting thing?

If most of those fights went as they should, it still wouldn't be that interesting.

Rules of the Internet 45. Rule 45 is a lie. Check out my art if you notice.
LSBK Since: Sep, 2014
#31875: Sep 10th 2018 at 1:36:20 PM

Like slimecoder said, most of those fights didn't matter either. Jiren could have just ended things right away, but he didn't, just because they needed...how many ever episodes they got out of the tournament.

If you found them entertaining, cool, but I really don't see how you can assign them more value or "creating greater tension" or anything like that.

Edited by LSBK on Sep 10th 2018 at 3:39:18 AM


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