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thok That's Dr. Title, thank you! (4 Score & 7 Years Ago) Relationship Status: Non-Canon
That's Dr. Title, thank you!
#31801: Sep 9th 2018 at 1:06:53 PM

[up][up][up] I suspect that there will be some payoff to Yamcha's development in final part of episode 60; during the canon version of the Gohan-Cell beam struggle all of the side characters get a chance to give a "World of Cardboard" Speech when they try to help Gohan; I suspect TFS will do something similar.

Kamiccolo Since: May, 2018
#31802: Sep 9th 2018 at 1:19:04 PM

How tall is Pikkon?
Around 6'2, going by Goku's official height of 5'9. Top of Goku's head comes up to just below his eyes. The animators had a height chart for the Otherworld Tournament. Also for the early and mid Buu arc.

HandsomeRob Leader of the Holey Brotherhood from The land of broken records Since: Jan, 2015
Leader of the Holey Brotherhood
#31803: Sep 9th 2018 at 1:28:07 PM

I'm pretty sure they are gonna cut that since it's filler. Probably as another joke about how they can't do shit.

I must admit, Tobias' thoughts on Yamcha are pretty fascinating. And it even kinda reflects Canon Tien as well. He continues training well into the Buu series, mainly because it's all he's got: he trains to catch up to Goku, because while he's much weaker than Goku and Vegeta and Piccolo, he's more into the martial arts than his fellow humans.

Yamcha seemed to be well versed in the history of Martial Arts (with his knowledge of all the different techniques and such), but when we first met him, he was just using it to get by as a desert bandit. Krillin came to Roshi to get stronger, but also wanted to impress girls and shit.

Tien...he was raised by one of the greatest mortal masters on the planet, and trained by the greatest assassin on the planet (who happened to be younger bro of the dude who raised him); he lived and breathed martial arts. Then Goku came along and (mostly by accident, but at least partially with some help from Roshi) taught him the same lesson that Jackie Chun had taught Goku three years earlier: Always keep improving. Despite all his power, Tien barely was a match for Goku, and didn't win in a way that satisfied him. Then Goku suddenly blew ahead of him after being gone for a few days (not months, weeks or even years, but days) and utterly trounced the dude who'd been slapping Tien around like a bitch before going on to just beat up the dude—who Tien had been trying to stop with a Dangerous Forbidden Technique because it was seemingly the only way—with his bare hands.

Tien trains his ass off for three years to keep up...but Goku is so far above him when they meet in those three years that he doesn't even need to use a Kamehameha any more. This is barely light sparring to him.

I think the key thing is that, unlike Yamcha or Krillin, who were never portrayed as being anywhere near Goku's league, Tien had the honour of being one of those rare few who could say they were in Goku's league. There was a time where he could have fairly beat him, not lucked out with a win he didn't earn...but then it passed.

It's no wonder he's so bitter about becoming irrelevant. How would you feel if you became So Last Season literally one arc after you were introduced?

Edited by HandsomeRob on Sep 9th 2018 at 2:27:44 AM

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Sigilbreaker26 Serial Procrastinator Since: Nov, 2017
Serial Procrastinator
#31804: Sep 9th 2018 at 1:45:14 PM

I was about to say that could apply to Piccolo as well, but he was still the lancer in the Saiyan Saga for all intents and purposes (although after Goku it was Gohan who was the most important combatant).

I will say that Tien was even more irrelevant in the King Piccolo arc than your summary makes out (one of the reasons I dislike the King Piccolo arc) - not only is his learning of the Evil Containment Wave useless because his practising of it on a jar burns a hole into the jar (which is such an anti-climax that if not for the Ultra Divine Water it would be the part of the arc I hated the most) but he hasn't even got the honour of jobbing to King Piccolo, but a new minion who Goku doesn't just trounce but one-shots.

Then Tien is held as a hostage. And then he fights Goku in the 23rd BT, forces him to remove his wieghted gear but otherwise loses pretty solidly, and that's it for Tien. I honestly don't know why Tori even bothered having him or Yamcha appear after the Saiyan arc.

(though ironically, Tien intercepting Buu's attack on Mr. Satan and Dende ends up being the most important action he'll ever make, and it's the moment that's most clearly an afterthought).

Edited by Sigilbreaker26 on Sep 9th 2018 at 8:51:42 AM

"And when the last law was down and the Devil turned round on you, where would you hide, the laws all being flat?"
Kamiccolo Since: May, 2018
#31805: Sep 9th 2018 at 2:13:07 PM

Goku admits that Ten saved him from both of Piccolo's city-destroyers so he'd probably be toast in that fight without him.

HandsomeRob Leader of the Holey Brotherhood from The land of broken records Since: Jan, 2015
Leader of the Holey Brotherhood
#31806: Sep 9th 2018 at 2:24:45 PM

That is true.

Tien didn't do much, but he did do that.

And then he slows down Semi-Perfect Cell...

...and then he prevents Super Buu's attack from killing...Dende was it?

Tien seems to be mostly good for buying a few precious seconds at most.

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LSBK Since: Sep, 2014
#31807: Sep 9th 2018 at 4:29:16 PM

Hey, so at the very beginning of the episode when Cell is happy about Gohan finally awakening he says something like "Lord and Piccolo.." or something, that I didn't really get. What's the reference/word play supposed to be?

Zelenal The Cat Knows Where It's At from Purrgatory Since: Jul, 2009 Relationship Status: Maxing my social links
The Cat Knows Where It's At
#31808: Sep 9th 2018 at 4:34:50 PM

Piccolo merged with God.

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LSBK Since: Sep, 2014
#31809: Sep 9th 2018 at 4:37:43 PM

I thought it was something like that, but I'm still not getting it. Maybe I'm just being dumb, but could you spell it out for me?

Ghilz Perpetually Confused from Yeeted at Relativistic Velocities Since: Jan, 2001 Relationship Status: Barbecuing
Perpetually Confused
#31810: Sep 9th 2018 at 4:56:05 PM

...and then he prevents Super Buu's attack from killing...Dende was it?

And Satan. Who turns out to be the real hero of the arc.

The tragedy of Yamcha and Tien is that even Mr. Satan winds out achieving more.

PushoverMediaCritic I'm sorry Tien, but I must go all out. from the Italy of America Since: Jul, 2015 Relationship Status: watch?v=dQw4w9WgXcQ
I'm sorry Tien, but I must go all out.
#31811: Sep 9th 2018 at 5:11:21 PM

I think Cell said "Oh my Lord... Piccolo".

The way I heard it, it was a pun. It sounded like Cell was referencing God, but in reality he was referencing Demon King Piccolo.

Weirdguy149 Former King from Lumiose City Since: Jul, 2014 Relationship Status: I'd jump in front of a train for ya!
Former King
#31812: Sep 9th 2018 at 5:44:00 PM

Heck, Mr. Satan had the most to gain by far out of the Cell Games.

The legend has returned.
randomness4 Ghost '11 from The Land of Inconvenience Since: Sep, 2011
Ghost '11
#31813: Sep 9th 2018 at 5:56:09 PM

Cell said: "Dear Lord in Piccoro..."

He already knew the fusion thing, so it's just a small word play of something.

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TobiasDrake (•̀⤙•́) (Edited uphill both ways) Relationship Status: Arm chopping is not a love language!
(•̀⤙•́)
#31814: Sep 9th 2018 at 6:06:24 PM

Yeah, it was "Dear Lord in Piccolo". Which is my favorite line of the episode.

It's a derivative off of "Dear Lord in Heaven", but God isn't in Heaven. He's in Piccolo.

My Tumblr. Currently side-by-side liveblogging Digimon Adventure, sub vs dub.
LSBK Since: Sep, 2014
#31815: Sep 9th 2018 at 6:07:06 PM

[up]Okay that makes sense. Thanks.

HandsomeRob Leader of the Holey Brotherhood from The land of broken records Since: Jan, 2015
Leader of the Holey Brotherhood
#31816: Sep 9th 2018 at 6:12:46 PM

Yeah, it was "Dear Lord in Piccolo". Which is my favorite line of the episode.

Heh. Jokes about Piccolo having been formerly god do get a chuckle out of me.

It's a derivative off of "Dear Lord in Heaven", but God isn't in Heaven. He's in Piccolo.

I mean, I know you mean it literally, but I'm sure I'm not the only person to catch that.

Edit:

And Satan. Who turns out to be the real hero of the arc.

The tragedy of Yamcha and Tien is that even Mr. Satan winds out achieving more.

I guess something about Satan just clicked with Toriyama. He's always been a joke guy at heart. I suppose he just liked the gag he had with Satan (a weakling who just barely manages to skate by on the gullibility of the people who adore him, natural charisma, and ridiculous luck).

Edited by HandsomeRob on Sep 9th 2018 at 7:14:13 AM

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Berserker88 Since: Dec, 2010
#31817: Sep 9th 2018 at 6:56:13 PM

What I find appealing about Satan is the fact that he'd be a fairly formidable adversary in just about any other shonen anime, or even the original Dragon Ball, but because he happens to be in Dragon Ball Z, he's so hopelessly out of his league yet so full of himself that it's hilarious.

PushoverMediaCritic I'm sorry Tien, but I must go all out. from the Italy of America Since: Jul, 2015 Relationship Status: watch?v=dQw4w9WgXcQ
I'm sorry Tien, but I must go all out.
#31818: Sep 9th 2018 at 6:58:51 PM

Given how many tiles he broke, he still wouldn't be very impressive in Dragon Ball. He'd be on par with the non-superhumans like Panput. He'd probably be pretty impressive in most street-level shonen.

LSBK Since: Sep, 2014
#31819: Sep 9th 2018 at 6:59:32 PM

I mean, I don't think that's actually true. Maybe he'd be okay in really early DB.

Edited by LSBK on Sep 9th 2018 at 8:59:47 AM

PushoverMediaCritic I'm sorry Tien, but I must go all out. from the Italy of America Since: Jul, 2015 Relationship Status: watch?v=dQw4w9WgXcQ
I'm sorry Tien, but I must go all out.
#31820: Sep 9th 2018 at 7:02:20 PM

I mean, I'd wager he'd be decently respected in realistic sports shows, like Hajime no Ippo. He'd be fairly important in most shows with nothing but normal non-superhumans.

He definitely doesn't have the feats to stack up to even start of the series kid Goku, what with Goku crushing boulders, breaking logs, and tanking axes.

Edited by PushoverMediaCritic on Sep 9th 2018 at 7:02:52 AM

HandsomeRob Leader of the Holey Brotherhood from The land of broken records Since: Jan, 2015
Leader of the Holey Brotherhood
#31821: Sep 9th 2018 at 7:05:21 PM

I'd buy that.

Satan is legitimately the strongest non Ki using human. In a world with no King Piccolos, and no Rosh's (to aim as low as possible), he'd be the tops.

It is darkly hilarious that almost every important fighter, starting as low as his own Daughter (and Chiaotzu) could kick his ass, but he gets far more respect in universe from the people of earth—and out of universe from his creator—than any of them.

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WillKeaton from Alberta, Canada Since: Jun, 2010
#31822: Sep 9th 2018 at 7:08:25 PM

Pretty sure King Choppa is still stronger than Satan. Or, at least, he was.

PushoverMediaCritic I'm sorry Tien, but I must go all out. from the Italy of America Since: Jul, 2015 Relationship Status: watch?v=dQw4w9WgXcQ
I'm sorry Tien, but I must go all out.
#31823: Sep 9th 2018 at 7:12:38 PM

I'd guess it depends on how you define ki-using. Like, does Nam use Ki? Because I can't see Mr. Satan jumping hundreds of feet in the air. Does Yajirobe use Ki? We've never seen him use any ki techniques of any kind. Now, granted, Mr. Satan does not use Ki, but I don't know if "using Ki" is a good metric to measure someone's strength.

I would say that Mark's strength is comparable to that of Panput (although Panput breaking the stone relief with an elbow is more impressive than anything Mark's ever done), where both are supposedly at the peak of normal human potential, and anything beyond them is superhuman.

TobiasDrake (•̀⤙•́) (Edited uphill both ways) Relationship Status: Arm chopping is not a love language!
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#31824: Sep 9th 2018 at 7:15:38 PM

Mr. Satan was nearly killed when he was shot in the back with a handgun.

One of the first things Goku ever did was take a handgun bullet to the face, which didn't even break the skin.

No, Mr. Satan wouldn't even put up a fight against early-series Goku. Goku would happen to him like a Saiyan to some poor unsuspecting local.

Edited by TobiasDrake on Sep 9th 2018 at 8:18:41 AM

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HandsomeRob Leader of the Holey Brotherhood from The land of broken records Since: Jan, 2015
Leader of the Holey Brotherhood
#31825: Sep 9th 2018 at 7:19:37 PM

[up]

Goku is like that to almost everybody, especially in early dragon ball.

To be honest, he's not a good measure for what an average well trained martial artist can tank in that series. Between how far ahead he is towards everyone until Tao shows up, and the initial gag nature of the series, we can really say how much Ki control is needed to tank bullets.

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