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randomness4 Ghost '11 from The Land of Inconvenience Since: Sep, 2011
Ghost '11
#31476: Sep 3rd 2018 at 10:14:59 PM

They had to tone it down...

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Eriorguez Since: Jun, 2009
#31477: Sep 4th 2018 at 6:54:32 AM

Kaioken was fine when Goku was an underdog. The extreme levels seen on Namek are of use with Freeza, the strongest mortal by far, is the threat.

But once Super Saiyan is there, Goku is no longer the underdog. Once there are more Super Saiyan forms, Kaioken is either obsolete without Super Saiyan, or makes Saiyans other than Goku obsolete, and in a way reminiscent of Namek, where Goku was 10 to 20 times stronger than Vegeta thanks to Kaioken.

Kaioken being incompatible with Super Saiyan would work as a marvelous plot device, in my opinion.

If anything, Piccolo, with his base strenght being quite a tad above base Saiyans (who hadn't surpassed Freeza by Battle of Gods) learning it could had been interesting for stuff like the U6 tournament, but still risks being too much around Z.

And Blue Kaioken being wasted on Hit was meh. The manga did that better, having "something similar to Kaioken" used by Goku and his completed Blue against Jiren, AKA the guy stronger than the Go Ds.

TobiasDrake (•̀⤙•́) (Edited uphill both ways) Relationship Status: Arm chopping is not a love language!
(•̀⤙•́)
#31478: Sep 4th 2018 at 7:16:55 AM

One thing I really like about Goku's plan in the new episode is that the crux of his whole manipulation of Cell hinges on:

"Cell would never pass that up. Because I wouldn't."

Goku's plan revolves around the idea that both Cell and Gohan think exactly like him. He is correct on one count. The plan might seem weirdly OOC for Abridged Goku, but when you consider that he basically made it by just looking at everyone involved and going, "What would I do?" it feels a bit more appropriate.

Edited by TobiasDrake on Sep 4th 2018 at 8:20:15 AM

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MarqFJA The Cosmopolitan Fictioneer from Deserts of the Middle East (Before Recorded History) Relationship Status: Anime is my true love
The Cosmopolitan Fictioneer
#31479: Sep 4th 2018 at 1:45:57 PM

It worked with Cell because he has Goku's DNA in him, and thus inherited Goku's sheer Blood Knight-ness. And Goku knew that, IIRC; that's what I believe he meant by "Cell would never pass [the promise of a no-holds-barred battle to the death] up, because I wouldn't."

Fiat iustitia, et pereat mundus.
Ghilz Perpetually Confused from Yeeted at Relativistic Velocities Since: Jan, 2001 Relationship Status: Barbecuing
Perpetually Confused
#31480: Sep 4th 2018 at 1:46:56 PM

Because personality traits are genetic? The again this is DBZ, where techniques are genetic.

So makes "sense".

Edited by Ghilz on Sep 4th 2018 at 4:46:42 AM

Rytex Your Friend on the Other Side from Here, There, Everywhere (Ancient one) Relationship Status: Married to the music
Your Friend on the Other Side
#31481: Sep 4th 2018 at 1:47:56 PM

It just goes to show you, when it comes to fights, Goku is a Genius Ditz, which honestly is a far cry from how he was portrayed when he went up against Frieza/Freezer/Freeza six years ago.

Man, this series has evolved.

The powerful play goes on, and you may contribute a verse.
Anomalocaris20 from Sagittarius A* Since: Sep, 2010 Relationship Status: Love blinded me (with science!)
#31482: Sep 4th 2018 at 1:49:37 PM

[up][up]Well, to some extent personality traits are; brain development is bound by genetics the same as any other organ. But they're also learned behavior from observing one's parents, which Cell... might have also had to some extent, assuming he was fed footage of the same battles Gero had analyzed.

Either way it's unlikely Cell would inherit a love for fighting from Goku's DNA, so presumably it's just from Gero's footage and conditioning?

Edited by Anomalocaris20 on Sep 4th 2018 at 4:52:38 AM

You cannot firmly grasp the true form of Squidward's technique!
MarqFJA The Cosmopolitan Fictioneer from Deserts of the Middle East (Before Recorded History) Relationship Status: Anime is my true love
The Cosmopolitan Fictioneer
#31483: Sep 4th 2018 at 1:56:32 PM

It's anime/manga. And an Abridged series. Lamarck Was Right is standard fare unless the work is deliberately trying to be very realistic.

Fiat iustitia, et pereat mundus.
Grahf Since: Jan, 2001
#31484: Sep 4th 2018 at 2:01:23 PM

It was only a matter of time before they uploaded the full version of this anyways, but I'm glad they did so as soon as this.

WillKeaton from Alberta, Canada Since: Jun, 2010
#31485: Sep 4th 2018 at 2:01:42 PM

I think Cell's the only one to learn moves that way. Well, maybe Piccolo.

...wait, maybe Piccolo's the reason Cell can learn stuff through genetic memory.

Sigilbreaker26 Serial Procrastinator Since: Nov, 2017
Serial Procrastinator
#31486: Sep 4th 2018 at 2:30:17 PM

DNA works really oddly in Dragonball, not only because Cell apparently learns moves genetically but also because Saiyan heritage explicitly affects how Goku and Vegeta operate (read: is an excuse for when they're insufferable) and that is presumed to have an impact on Cell as well.

"And when the last law was down and the Devil turned round on you, where would you hide, the laws all being flat?"
TobiasDrake (•̀⤙•́) (Edited uphill both ways) Relationship Status: Arm chopping is not a love language!
(•̀⤙•́)
#31487: Sep 4th 2018 at 4:26:24 PM

It worked with Cell because he has Goku's DNA in him, and thus inherited Goku's sheer Blood Knight-ness. And Goku knew that, IIRC; that's what I believe he meant by "Cell would never pass [the promise of a no-holds-barred battle to the death] up, because I wouldn't."

Gohan has Goku's DNA in him too. That's how children work.

It just goes to show you, when it comes to fights, Goku is a Genius Ditz, which honestly is a far cry from how he was portrayed when he went up against Frieza/Freezer/Freeza six years ago.

Goku was smarter than others gave him credit for back then too. Remember "Did you just hold a grudge?"

I think Cell's the only one to learn moves that way. Well, maybe Piccolo.

...wait, maybe Piccolo's the reason Cell can learn stuff through genetic memory.

You know, that might actually be Fridge Brilliance. Piccolo has total continuity of identity from his past existence as Piccolo Daimao. He remembers his old life, his grudge against Goku, how to use his powers, etc.

It's why the "Piccolo's just a child too, barely older than Gohan!" argument always bugs me. It ignores the fact that Piccolo's self-reincarnation preserved his personality and identity intact. He even aged super-fast to get up to fighting speed, becoming a full-grown adult in three years.

The process had consequences for Piccolo's psyche - reincarnating himself seems to have given him back the moral compass he lost when he split from God, seeing as he's explicitly stated to be less evil now - but he is the same guy for all intents and purposes. Same soul, same mind, but a shiny new body with a capacity for good as a free gift with purchase.

Taking that into account could actually justify Cell having continuity of identity from all five of his donors. Their personalities, memories, experiences, muscle memory, all wrapped up inside of him because he inherited Piccolo's genetic memory. That seems perfectly in-line with what the character's supposed to be.

Edited by TobiasDrake on Sep 4th 2018 at 5:37:48 AM

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PushoverMediaCritic I'm sorry Tien, but I must go all out. from the Italy of America Since: Jul, 2015 Relationship Status: watch?v=dQw4w9WgXcQ
I'm sorry Tien, but I must go all out.
#31488: Sep 4th 2018 at 4:59:05 PM

Piccolo Jr has King Piccolo's techniques, but I'm pretty sure he doesn't have his memories. I seem to remember a chapter/episode about young Piccolo Jr meeting an old couple and discovering his powers, and he very much had the mentality of a child.

Also, Abridged Piccolo related to the Androids telling him about their experience of having their creator saying "kill Goku" in their minds while they were unconscious, so Abridged Piccolo's experience was probably something like that.

Edited by PushoverMediaCritic on Sep 4th 2018 at 5:00:38 AM

WillKeaton from Alberta, Canada Since: Jun, 2010
#31489: Sep 4th 2018 at 5:10:44 PM

I mean, either Cell got the genetic memory thing from Piccolo, or Gero found a species of cicada that can do it, which would explain why he's like 90% bug. And if he didn't need the bug for the memory thing, why is he 90% bug!?

Weirdguy149 Former King from Lumiose City Since: Jul, 2014 Relationship Status: I'd jump in front of a train for ya!
Former King
#31490: Sep 4th 2018 at 5:17:09 PM

I always thought it was just because the Namekian and Frieza species DNA meshed together in a weird way and that's why he looks like a giant bug man.

The legend has returned.
PushoverMediaCritic I'm sorry Tien, but I must go all out. from the Italy of America Since: Jul, 2015 Relationship Status: watch?v=dQw4w9WgXcQ
I'm sorry Tien, but I must go all out.
#31491: Sep 4th 2018 at 5:27:46 PM

An actual chimera of Saiyan, Namekian, and Freeza's race would have a long thick tail covered in hair, really stupid hair on their head, antennae, and would have bio-gems intermingled with Namekian muscles on their limbs. Also, their ears would be Freeza's holes but with the back corners pointed.

Reposting from the Dragon Ball thread:

The Saiyan Saga was 10 episodes, the Freeza Saga was 20 episodes, and the Cell Saga has been 30 episodes. If this pattern continues, the Buu Saga will clock in at 40 episodes. To compare, here's the number of episodes in Abridged vs Kai (note that the finales are all a single "episode" broken up into three parts, so add two onto the end of the Abridged counts for the actual total):

Saiyan Saga: 16 in Kai, 10 in DBZA

Freeza Saga: 38 in Kai, 20 in DBZA

Cell Saga: 44 in Kai, 30 in DBZA

Buu Saga: 61 in Kai, presumably 40 in DBZA

They do have a clear pattern of about 1 DBZA episode for every 1 and a half Kai episodes.

Eriorguez Since: Jun, 2009
#31492: Sep 4th 2018 at 5:44:55 PM

I am a biologist and I can say that chimeras don't work that way. Cellular chimaeras have a random mosaic organization, while genetic chimaeras are more in-betweens rather than just mix and match.

Or how the fuck do you think ligers are larger than both tigers and lions, or, in other words, how the fuck would they show a trait neither parent species has, if things worked the way you said.

TobiasDrake (•̀⤙•́) (Edited uphill both ways) Relationship Status: Arm chopping is not a love language!
(•̀⤙•́)
#31493: Sep 4th 2018 at 6:18:43 PM

Piccolo Jr has King Piccolo's techniques, but I'm pretty sure he doesn't have his memories. I seem to remember a chapter/episode about young Piccolo Jr meeting an old couple and discovering his powers, and he very much had the mentality of a child.

Literally his first words after hatching are to swear to avenge Piccolo Daimao. He very clearly has Piccolo's memories. This is also the only time we ever see "Piccolo Jr." as a child in the manga. Any other appearance you might be remembering is anime filler, which is notoriously terrible at representing the manga's canon.

Of note: Piccolo does initially play coy about his identity. He presents himself as Ma Junior at the Tournament. However, when God - in the guise of Shen - addresses him as Piccolo directly, Piccolo is stunned by the fact that he knows that. Goku and God discuss Piccolo's connection to him and the fact that if one dies, the other dies as well. Then God, right at the start of his match, addresses Piccolo by name to startle him and create an opening.

Piccolo and God proceed to have a conversation in an alien language - later revealed to be Namekian - further demonstrating the truth of Piccolo's identity, in that he remembers this language from their youth. Piccolo further taunts God about the fact that God cannot kill him without dying as well, demonstrating that he is every bit as aware of their connection as God is.

Any pretense of Piccolo and Piccolo Daimao being son and father is dropped here. God speaks of Piccolo as if he is the one true Piccolo, and Piccolo responds in kind. Because. Y'know. He is.

God wouldn't be alive if he wasn't.

Later, we also find out that Piccolo has spent the last three years mastering a technique to reverse the Mafuba, which he knows about. Because it was used against him. Because he's the same guy.

Then, under pressure from his friends, Goku reveals to them the truth: that Ma Junior is, in fact, Piccolo Daimao reborn.

The entire chain of events following "Piccolo Jr's" birth is very clear about the fact that this is Piccolo.

Edited by TobiasDrake on Sep 4th 2018 at 7:25:10 AM

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WillKeaton from Alberta, Canada Since: Jun, 2010
#31494: Sep 4th 2018 at 6:30:35 PM

Cell is just made from Goku, Vegeta, Piccolo, Freeza and King Cold? I thought there were more people in there. Like doesn't he know a bunch of Tien's moves? Or does Goku know all of Tien's good moves?

Wait. When they make the wish to revive everyone who was killed by Cell, why didn't it revive King Kai?

LSBK Since: Sep, 2014
#31495: Sep 4th 2018 at 6:32:13 PM

I think the anime implies he's made of more people than the manga. And the abridged just goes full circle and makes him made of basically every fighter in the cast except Yamcha.

Edited by LSBK on Sep 4th 2018 at 8:32:16 AM

Saiga Since: Feb, 2011 Relationship Status: Getting away with murder
#31496: Sep 4th 2018 at 6:40:44 PM

The manga also mentions 'various other lifeforms' being involved in Cell, which is presumably where the insect appearance and larval/cicada states comes from.

sgamer82 Since: Jan, 2001
#31497: Sep 4th 2018 at 6:45:47 PM

The process had consequences for Piccolo's psyche - reincarnating himself seems to have given him back the moral compass he lost when he split from God, seeing as he's explicitly stated to be less evil now - but he is the same guy for all intents and purposes. Same soul, same mind, but a shiny new body with a capacity for good as a free gift with purchase.

Also, Abridged Piccolo related to the Androids telling him about their experience of having their creator saying "kill Goku" in their minds while they were unconscious, so Abridged Piccolo's experience was probably something like that.
To me, Piccolo being able to turn good has always had an element of Loophole Abuse. He spends his whole life determined to kill Goku to avenge his father. He was compelled to do so by King Piccolo's dying wish, but once that wish was fulfilled, regardless of Goku coming back to life, he was free to do as he liked.

For anyone familiar iwth Star Wars Legends/The Thrawn Trilogy, it's basically how Mara Jade frees herself from Palpatine's constant compulsion/dying order to kill Luke Skywalker, she fulfills it by killing a clone of Luke instead. (spoiler just in case anyone actually cares about it)

Edited by sgamer82 on Sep 4th 2018 at 7:45:18 AM

PushoverMediaCritic I'm sorry Tien, but I must go all out. from the Italy of America Since: Jul, 2015 Relationship Status: watch?v=dQw4w9WgXcQ
I'm sorry Tien, but I must go all out.
#31498: Sep 4th 2018 at 6:48:42 PM

I do like that Cell being made of everyone except Yamcha wasn't just a throwaway gag and they managed to weave it into Cell's characterization with his fondness/pity for Yamcha.

WillKeaton from Alberta, Canada Since: Jun, 2010
#31499: Sep 4th 2018 at 6:53:50 PM

Why would Cell be particularly fond of someone he's not related too? Like, wouldn't he think higher of Yamcha if he was part of him?

slimcoder The Head of the Hydra Since: May, 2013
The Head of the Hydra
#31500: Sep 4th 2018 at 6:57:05 PM

It’s the Goku in him that makes him soft on Yamcha.

"I am Alpharius. This is a lie."

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