Horse crap...
Oh no, I totally believe...
Rules of the Internet 45. Rule 45 is a lie. Check out my art if you notice.If only traveling across the universes was a thing...
Rules of the Internet 45. Rule 45 is a lie. Check out my art if you notice.That argument doesn't really work, because if it were just a technique that Goku could freely use it immediately raises the question of why he didn't stack it with his previous forms. Especially when the form he does combine it with (SSB) is directly related to the forms he didn't use it with before.
It's true that we hadn't had an explanation for why he didn't do it before, but it's not very logical to assume there just wasn't one. I at least appreciate that Toei did give an excuse for Goku not doing this previously, but their explanation for why Blue Kaio-ken was okay felt pretty weak and contrived.
And I'm going to echo that the 'million-to-one chance' thing being played straight is just really annoying. It's a cheap attempt at adding tension and trying to mask the lack of build up for it.
I much prefer the anime's use of Super Kaio-ken - Goku's dead and in Otherworld, which we later learn lets him better deal with extremely taxing power-ups. He only uses it for a brief moment, and this is the first time we've seen SS Goku fight all-out while dead, so the circumstances can justify its use without an attempt to explain it. This is a happy accident since SS 3 and the advantages of being dead/Otherworld came into play later, but it works well with those reveals.
It is also incredibly satisfying for Goku to pull 'I did this with off-screen training' when we had seen several chunks of his training on-screen that didn't hint towards this at all, effectively superceding the training we actually spent time watching and raising the question of when the hell he practiced this without Vegeta's knowledge.
I brought that up though. That the issue is why he didn't do it with Super Saiyan form(s) and what makes it different now. To me, the answers to those questions matter more than the emphasis on Godly ki Mr.Bad Guy was making.
I believe they came up with a reason for the first, but wasn't sure of the second. It being Super, I wasn't expecting good answers to those questions, but if they were provided, eh...
Edited by LSBK on Sep 3rd 2018 at 9:28:20 AM
If you like Bluper 2 Vegeta, that's good. However, saying it's somehow a more meaningful transformation or "earned" power up than Kaioken is complete bullshit.
Kaioken is an established technique that Goku had already mastered for years, there's no need to build it up because while it may not have been used for a while, it's not really a technique Goku needed to learn. They even explained why he never tried it with his other Super Saiyan forms before Blue, and even then he explained it was a dangerous gamble. And it doesn't even win Goku the match, all it does it just allow him to bypass Hit's ability and even the playing the field.
Blue Evolution literally has no build up at all, and only happens because the plot dictated that Vegeta get a new power up for some reason. And the form itself doesn't even amount to much, because he doesn't do any better against Jiren or Toppo than what he was accomplishing with just normal Blue alone. It's such a blatant emotionally manipulative move "Oh he got stronger by thinking about his family" and admittedly, sure it's nice that Vegeta has a selfless motivation. But he didn't need a new transformation for that.
A lazy millennial who's good at what he does.That's not very concise either...
Rules of the Internet 45. Rule 45 is a lie. Check out my art if you notice.
x3 I already think transformation power ups as a concept are dumb, and it would have been a better scene if Vegeta hadn't transformed and instead just fought with everything he had and lost (I kinda think that's what it was, that Blue 2 was just, like, him pumping all his power at once, but it's probably going to end up its own transformation down the line)
And I emphatically disagree that anything was as bad as Goku getting a power up from his multiplication tables, regardless of any jargon used to explain it. At the very least "thinking about his family" is an emotional reaction the audience can be expected to understand.
Edited by Mr.Badguy on Sep 3rd 2018 at 10:37:05 AM
Yeah I hadn't seen all of those. I agree that it's not Godly ki that's the issue, but SS represemts essentially the same issue.
I'm sure as hell not coming to Dragon Ball expecting any kind of clever subversions or interesting new writing techniques.
That's not true, or people wouldn't be able to enjoy viewing things multiple times.
Even recently we've had psycological tests that suggest spoilers enhance enjoyment - Nicholas Christenfeld's research - which really shoots that idea down.
And it's weird that you say you don't expect subversions and interesting new writing from DB, since having a reputation for that is what helped make the original popular. That's why cliche monents like Vegeta's new form are so bad, they really go against the strengths DB had.
Come on, we both know this doesn't matter
Edited by Saiga on Sep 4th 2018 at 12:42:41 AM
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I think that stories should try to avoid that sort of emotional manipulation as an excuse for not coming up with adequate ways to explain power-ups and the like.
There doesn't have to be some dichotomy between emotion and internal sense, they can coexist, and the best things, usually, if not always, have both.
Edited by LSBK on Sep 3rd 2018 at 9:40:27 AM
x2 I'm not really sure what new stuff Dragon Ball invented other than Super Mode power ups (and even then I could swear that had been in other stuff by then), but it's also possible that so many series have copied Dragon Ball since that what Dragon Ball made new now seems cliche in comparison.
Anyway as for my feelings on writing, well, I think you get something new out of returning to a work of fiction. John Dies At The End is one of the few books I've re-read and I get something new about it every time I return, be it a new character insight, a new interpretation, or just a detail I missed.
Looking back I did overgeneralize in saying that you might as well not bother with going into a book knowing everything, though, if only because of this situation.
Edited by Mr.Badguy on Sep 3rd 2018 at 10:49:37 AM
DB redefined the shonen genre, which is more modern than you might think. DB definitely gets hit with "Seinfeld" Is Unfunny, but the funny thing to me is that a lot of its conventions essentially subverted ideas before its spiritual successors would even use them, which is what makes it compare favourably to many shonen even today.
I admit, that was good of them, though yeah, it's not clear why Blue has better Ki control than regular SS. Goku just says it does.
Are we sure about that? How far ahead was the manga when the anime reached this point? It could have been that they took the opportunity to do some foreshadowing?
One Strip! One Strip!I mean if I'm being honest one of the things I love most about Dragon Ball is that it's primarily about a 40-something grandfather. Shonen protags usually peter out after 17.
I am actually interested in hearing more about what you have to say. What else did Dragon Ball start?
Edited by Mr.Badguy on Sep 3rd 2018 at 10:59:22 AM
The secret to Kaioken x10/x20 is that the numbers are bullshit and don't mean anything. It's code for "big boost" and "bigger boost". That's why Goku can't use them to immediately trounce Beerus or whoever.
That's mainly because it was featured when the series still used numerical values.
Practically speaking, there's no real difference between Kaioken x2 or x10 in the context of Super, which is why the numbers are dropped completely aside from Kaioken Blue x20 against Jiren dir the Freeza call back.
A lazy millennial who's good at what he does.
Practically speaking, there's barely any difference between Base and Blue in Super.

Edited by LSBK on Sep 3rd 2018 at 9:21:51 AM