TVTropes Now available in the app store!
Open

Follow TV Tropes

Following

Dragon Ball Z Abridged

Go To

slimcoder The Head of the Hydra Since: May, 2013
The Head of the Hydra
#31426: Sep 3rd 2018 at 6:20:56 PM

Goku also hasn't had an actual victory since Frieza.

He lost to 19, was out for most of the Cell Saga, forfeited against Cell, his rematch with Majin Vegeta ended inconclusively, he only distracted Fat Buu for a bit, & his battle with Kid Buu was a team effort of Vegeta & Fat Buu buying time.

Edited by slimcoder on Sep 3rd 2018 at 6:20:36 AM

"I am Alpharius. This is a lie."
HandsomeRob Leader of the Holey Brotherhood from The land of broken records Since: Jan, 2015
LSBK Since: Sep, 2014
#31428: Sep 3rd 2018 at 6:24:12 PM

Also, I was looking back on things and I saw this:

Unlike Goku for the last 30 years Vegeta has gone through an arc that's lasted Super, becoming an honourable, heroic warrior whose determination is fueled by his desire to protect his family and fulfill a promise. He's a giant teddy bear now and Dragon Ball is better for it.

And I disagree with almost everything in this. Super treated Vegeta horribly by ignoring his character development except in moments when they specifically wanted to milk it for emotion. Well, either that or when they wanted to make jokes about how much Goku sucked. They basically regressed his character until moments they wanted to go "Look how much he's changed!", and then promptly went back to acting as if the change wasn't actually there.

And I also think the post exaggerates how seriously he changed in the first place, but that's not as important.

Edited by LSBK on Sep 3rd 2018 at 8:30:04 AM

Ikedatakeshi Baby dango from singapore Since: Nov, 2015 Relationship Status: Singularity
Baby dango
#31429: Sep 3rd 2018 at 6:24:39 PM

He trained for SS 2, SS 3, SSB and Kaioken. If gaining benefits from his Saiyan heritage and thus not earned, then he never did, because he gets those benefits from birth. His natural talent partially comes from his Saiyan blood.

Mr.Badguy Since: May, 2013 Relationship Status: YOU'RE TEARING ME APART LISA
#31430: Sep 3rd 2018 at 6:32:26 PM

It's how they were revealed. Goku reveals his hitherto unknown ability to stack Kaio Ken with the God Ki to the audience so he can beat Hit, and it sucks because from a writing standpoint it's just pulled out of his ass. If a character starts grunting about how they have a million-to-one chance to succeed, then they always will without fail.

As for Vegeta, well, I've argued enough about that. I stand by what I said.

Edited by Mr.Badguy on Sep 3rd 2018 at 9:36:26 AM

LSBK Since: Sep, 2014
#31431: Sep 3rd 2018 at 6:34:25 PM

You didn't actually argue anything, but I'm not interested in doing so. It was just too egregious for me to not comment on.

I could maybe understand calling it an ass pull, but either that or nonsensical describes most of the power ups and fighting in Super, it's hardly unique to Goku.

Although, I don't see why "stacking it" on Godly ki, would even need a specific explanation to begin with. The Kaioken is a technique like any other, God Ki doesn't prevent Goku from somehow using the Kamehameha.

Edited by LSBK on Sep 3rd 2018 at 8:38:07 AM

Mr.Badguy Since: May, 2013 Relationship Status: YOU'RE TEARING ME APART LISA
#31432: Sep 3rd 2018 at 6:34:52 PM

That is the smarmiest post I've ever gotten on this site. Well played.

Anyway you're missing my point. Goku just casually reveals to the audience that he can combine his two power ups and achieve more strength and speed to beat Hit. Nothing about it is properly built up in a way that makes it satisfying to see Goku risk his life on a million to one chance at succeeding because all we have to go with it, as an audience, is that he trained off-screen and it might kill him but anyone with the slightest knowledge of writing tropes knows he'll succeed. As soon as Goku starts powering up the fight, as far as the audience is concerned, is over.

I'm too dumb to think of a specific example from fiction right now, so let's say I wrote a story where two kids are trapped in a well, whereupon one of them casually reveals that they can jump twenty feet into the air. I don't foreshadow this, I don't even infodump it earlier. It just happens. The whole point of the story is seeing the kids get out of the well! How pissed off would the audience be if I robbed them of a satisfying conclusion?

Edited by Mr.Badguy on Sep 3rd 2018 at 9:41:40 AM

HandsomeRob Leader of the Holey Brotherhood from The land of broken records Since: Jan, 2015
Leader of the Holey Brotherhood
#31433: Sep 3rd 2018 at 6:41:31 PM

Lack of build up is an admitted issue of the Super anime.

It's the same thing with the Spirit Sword of Hope. It comes right the fuck out of nowhere, and Trunks doesn't even have the excuse that it was at least a technique he knew before like with Goku and Kaioken.

I'm more forgiving of Kaioken though, because while there are meta reasons, and we've made guesses about why he stopped using it (like it would have killed him, plus Super Saiyan is superior), we're never giving a official God given statement for why Goku stopped using it. He just did. So as someone who always loved it, I was ecstatic to see it return.

One Strip! One Strip!
LSBK Since: Sep, 2014
#31434: Sep 3rd 2018 at 6:45:56 PM

[up][up]I'm not missing the point of anything. The Kaioken is a technique, that Goku can use.

The bigger issue would be why he stopped using it, or never combined it with any of his Super Saiyan forms, which I believe they addressed.

Another issue would be why it was too risky with Super Saiyan, but not Blue. I don't remember if they gave an explanation for that, or maybe Goku was just fine with dying (actually, pretty sure he was fine with dying, since he explicitly asks that Hit be allowed to use his best moves), but that's it. The point is, you talk of "stacking" Kaioken on Blue as if Kaioken is a transformation is faulty.

And I don't accept your premise that "knowing the fight is over" somehow makes it bad to begin with. I'm pretty sure everyone is aware the fight is going to have an ending going in.

Edited by LSBK on Sep 3rd 2018 at 8:47:38 AM

Mr.Badguy Since: May, 2013 Relationship Status: YOU'RE TEARING ME APART LISA
#31435: Sep 3rd 2018 at 6:51:58 PM

:/

You're talking about in-universe justifications. I am talking about writing and the utilization of tropes therein. So yeah, you're missing my point.

Fundamentally Kaio-Blue and Goku's transformation are the same thing. They just happen because otherwise the hero doesn't win. That's basically how fiction works.

The difference is that the Super Saiyan had an entire arc of build up, with Vegeta trying and failing to actualize the legend in himself, Goku and his friends being pushed to their limits, and finally the death of Krillin driving Goku mad enough to send his powers skyrocketing enough to defeat Freeza. Goku couldn't just beat Freeza as himself, with all the chaos, destruction and sacrifice up to that point, it had to be something like the Super Saiyan.

By contrast, Kaio-Blue just happens. Goku talks about how it'll kill him and then it doesn't, though in fairness to Super's writing, Goku does lose the match by overexerting himself which lead to some development for Hit, so there was some consequence and reward out of it.

LSBK Since: Sep, 2014
#31436: Sep 3rd 2018 at 6:53:12 PM

No, I'm not. I understand what you're saying narratively, I just disagree with you.

I fundamentally disagree with your notion of what does or doesn't constitute an "earned" victory. (Which isn't to say that I think some wins or loses can be bullshit, just that your way of describing them is very flawed, to me).

Edited by LSBK on Sep 3rd 2018 at 8:58:57 AM

WillKeaton from Alberta, Canada Since: Jun, 2010
#31437: Sep 3rd 2018 at 6:55:49 PM

Didn't Goku only combine the Kaioken with Blue the one time in his fight with Hit and had serious negative effects from it? Like, Goku couldn't use his Ki at all for, days, (weeks? I forget the number) after combining Kaioken with Blue. That's reason enough to stop using it.

Mr.Badguy Since: May, 2013 Relationship Status: YOU'RE TEARING ME APART LISA
#31438: Sep 3rd 2018 at 6:57:17 PM

Okay let me put it this way.

If Krillin died on Namek and then Goku goes "luckily I've been training hard since I left Earth and can go Super Saiyan!" would that be a satisfying conclusion to you.

Because that's what Kaio-Blue is.

slimcoder The Head of the Hydra Since: May, 2013
The Head of the Hydra
#31439: Sep 3rd 2018 at 6:58:46 PM

So all it needs a little build-up basically?

..... That seems like a simple solution really.

Edited by slimcoder on Sep 3rd 2018 at 6:58:31 AM

"I am Alpharius. This is a lie."
LSBK Since: Sep, 2014
#31440: Sep 3rd 2018 at 6:59:10 PM

Well, for one thing the two situation aren't anywhere near the same level of seriousness.

Nothing is lost from Goku revealing Kaioken-Blue in this tournament because there are no (meaningful) stakes. Just moving the Earth to Universe 6 or not, which is acknowledged as not actually changing anything for anyone on Earth. It's basically just revealing he can do it, so later on when he uses it during actually important shit no one is surprised.

Of course, the actual usage of it during the rest of Super was shit, but that's besides the point for this conversation.

Edited by LSBK on Sep 3rd 2018 at 9:04:49 AM

slimcoder The Head of the Hydra Since: May, 2013
The Head of the Hydra
#31441: Sep 3rd 2018 at 6:59:55 PM

Sad thing is this a Super thing so of course it was handled poorly.

The show did have a messy production after all.

Edited by slimcoder on Sep 3rd 2018 at 6:59:35 AM

"I am Alpharius. This is a lie."
Mr.Badguy Since: May, 2013 Relationship Status: YOU'RE TEARING ME APART LISA
#31442: Sep 3rd 2018 at 7:05:36 PM

[up]x3 That's a bit of a concise way to put it, but kinda sorta, yeah.

By contrast, Vegeta does basically the exact same thing when he goes Beyond Blue (is that the official name? IDK). However I like it more because despite it being fundamentally similar to Kaio-Blue, I feel it was earned. Vegeta has to take on Toppo and power through the literal essence of Destruction and face someone even stronger than that by drawing on, well, the power of his love for his family, his promise to Cabba and his drive to be perpetually stronger than he already is. It's just as cliche, but it's built up as a rewarding venture because of Vegeta's character growth. It's not just Vegeta adding more numbers to his power level, even though it might as well be that.

The essence of writing is taking someone you know is going to win at the end and deluding the audience into thinking they won't until the last minute.

Edited by Mr.Badguy on Sep 3rd 2018 at 10:06:41 AM

LSBK Since: Sep, 2014
#31443: Sep 3rd 2018 at 7:08:20 PM

[up]….Okay, I'm just going to stop talking to you about this. Your summation of Vegeta's transformation and its meaning has clearly shown we're never going to agree on the subject.

Everything about Vegeta's Super Saiyan Bluer was just terrible.

Edited by LSBK on Sep 3rd 2018 at 9:12:30 AM

Mr.Badguy Since: May, 2013 Relationship Status: YOU'RE TEARING ME APART LISA
#31444: Sep 3rd 2018 at 7:10:01 PM

If you start a sentence with some permutation of "I'm going to stop talking to you" then you might as well cut it off right there.

LSBK Since: Sep, 2014
#31445: Sep 3rd 2018 at 7:11:34 PM

I didn't say I'd stop talking to you. I said I'd stop talking to you about this. And possible Super's treatment of Vegeta, which you take as great, and I take as a huge disservice to the character (like most things Super did with the characters).

Edited by LSBK on Sep 3rd 2018 at 9:11:30 AM

slimcoder The Head of the Hydra Since: May, 2013
The Head of the Hydra
#31446: Sep 3rd 2018 at 7:11:45 PM

Yeeeeeeeeeeah Vegeta’s Power-up is just a friendship boost, a shitty one at that.

It’s literally “I feel something so I’m a gonna get stronger” & his “character development” doesn’t excuse that it’s not done well.

I mean Seven Deadly Sins just a had chapter where a character undergoes a transformation solely because “my girls in trouble so I gotta morph & suddenly turn the tide”.

It’s pretty much the same shit Fairy Tail does every time.

Edited by slimcoder on Sep 3rd 2018 at 7:12:16 AM

"I am Alpharius. This is a lie."
randomness4 Ghost '11 from The Land of Inconvenience Since: Sep, 2011
Ghost '11
#31447: Sep 3rd 2018 at 7:13:52 PM

What about Super Saiya-jin Blue 2 was a thing...?

Rules of the Internet 45. Rule 45 is a lie. Check out my art if you notice.
LSBK Since: Sep, 2014
#31448: Sep 3rd 2018 at 7:17:01 PM

The essence of writing is taking someone you know is going to win at the end and deluding the audience into thinking they won't until the last minute.

But surprisingly not, I have to disagree with this as well. Good writing isn't about deluding people. I've seen plenty of things that have had outcomes that I saw coming but still loved because they were executed incredibly well.

From my experience, things like this are more likely to come from subpar things that thing "surprise" equates with "good".

Mr.Badguy Since: May, 2013 Relationship Status: YOU'RE TEARING ME APART LISA
#31449: Sep 3rd 2018 at 7:17:41 PM

[up]x3 Oh yes, it is absolutely just Vegeta getting stronger because of the Power of Love. It's a well worn cliche.

It's just that, well, it's anime and I'm already used to that being a thing, and Vegeta's been such a complete hardass for so long that seeing him develop this way across Super is genuinely touching. I love what's been done with his character.

[up]If you open up a book and know what's going to happen right from the word go without ever having read it before, you might as well not bother. Even works that stick to tried and true tropes need to have something to them to make them stand out, which includes things like strong writing, clever subversion, and yes, surprises.

I'm sure as hell not coming to Dragon Ball expecting any kind of clever subversions or interesting new writing techniques.

Edited by Mr.Badguy on Sep 3rd 2018 at 10:23:27 AM

slimcoder The Head of the Hydra Since: May, 2013
The Head of the Hydra
#31450: Sep 3rd 2018 at 7:21:32 PM

None of that justifies bad writing.

I got tired of Vegeta’s “feelings” the moment he survived the Final Explosion & was still able to go Blue afterwards.

That was complete & total 🐴 shit.

Edited by slimcoder on Sep 3rd 2018 at 7:21:05 AM

"I am Alpharius. This is a lie."

Total posts: 40,340
Top