...
Right, I know there are people who will agree with you, but me personally:
Disclaimer: Handsome Rob does not seriously condone booing people who's opinion differs from my own...Unless you like babies. Those things are disgusting.
One Strip! One Strip!Also, I was looking back on things and I saw this:
And I disagree with almost everything in this. Super treated Vegeta horribly by ignoring his character development except in moments when they specifically wanted to milk it for emotion. Well, either that or when they wanted to make jokes about how much Goku sucked. They basically regressed his character until moments they wanted to go "Look how much he's changed!", and then promptly went back to acting as if the change wasn't actually there.
And I also think the post exaggerates how seriously he changed in the first place, but that's not as important.
Edited by LSBK on Sep 3rd 2018 at 8:30:04 AM
It's how they were revealed. Goku reveals his hitherto unknown ability to stack Kaio Ken with the God Ki to the audience so he can beat Hit, and it sucks because from a writing standpoint it's just pulled out of his ass. If a character starts grunting about how they have a million-to-one chance to succeed, then they always will without fail.
As for Vegeta, well, I've argued enough about that. I stand by what I said.
Edited by Mr.Badguy on Sep 3rd 2018 at 9:36:26 AM
You didn't actually argue anything, but I'm not interested in doing so. It was just too egregious for me to not comment on.
I could maybe understand calling it an ass pull, but either that or nonsensical describes most of the power ups and fighting in Super, it's hardly unique to Goku.
Although, I don't see why "stacking it" on Godly ki, would even need a specific explanation to begin with. The Kaioken is a technique like any other, God Ki doesn't prevent Goku from somehow using the Kamehameha.
Edited by LSBK on Sep 3rd 2018 at 8:38:07 AM
That is the smarmiest post I've ever gotten on this site. Well played.
Anyway you're missing my point. Goku just casually reveals to the audience that he can combine his two power ups and achieve more strength and speed to beat Hit. Nothing about it is properly built up in a way that makes it satisfying to see Goku risk his life on a million to one chance at succeeding because all we have to go with it, as an audience, is that he trained off-screen and it might kill him but anyone with the slightest knowledge of writing tropes knows he'll succeed. As soon as Goku starts powering up the fight, as far as the audience is concerned, is over.
I'm too dumb to think of a specific example from fiction right now, so let's say I wrote a story where two kids are trapped in a well, whereupon one of them casually reveals that they can jump twenty feet into the air. I don't foreshadow this, I don't even infodump it earlier. It just happens. The whole point of the story is seeing the kids get out of the well! How pissed off would the audience be if I robbed them of a satisfying conclusion?
Edited by Mr.Badguy on Sep 3rd 2018 at 9:41:40 AM
Lack of build up is an admitted issue of the Super anime.
It's the same thing with the Spirit Sword of Hope. It comes right the fuck out of nowhere, and Trunks doesn't even have the excuse that it was at least a technique he knew before like with Goku and Kaioken.
I'm more forgiving of Kaioken though, because while there are meta reasons, and we've made guesses about why he stopped using it (like it would have killed him, plus Super Saiyan is superior), we're never giving a official God given statement for why Goku stopped using it. He just did. So as someone who always loved it, I was ecstatic to see it return.
One Strip! One Strip!![]()
I'm not missing the point of anything. The Kaioken is a technique, that Goku can use.
The bigger issue would be why he stopped using it, or never combined it with any of his Super Saiyan forms, which I believe they addressed.
Another issue would be why it was too risky with Super Saiyan, but not Blue. I don't remember if they gave an explanation for that, or maybe Goku was just fine with dying (actually, pretty sure he was fine with dying, since he explicitly asks that Hit be allowed to use his best moves), but that's it. The point is, you talk of "stacking" Kaioken on Blue as if Kaioken is a transformation is faulty.
And I don't accept your premise that "knowing the fight is over" somehow makes it bad to begin with. I'm pretty sure everyone is aware the fight is going to have an ending going in.
Edited by LSBK on Sep 3rd 2018 at 8:47:38 AM
:/
You're talking about in-universe justifications. I am talking about writing and the utilization of tropes therein. So yeah, you're missing my point.
Fundamentally Kaio-Blue and Goku's transformation are the same thing. They just happen because otherwise the hero doesn't win. That's basically how fiction works.
The difference is that the Super Saiyan had an entire arc of build up, with Vegeta trying and failing to actualize the legend in himself, Goku and his friends being pushed to their limits, and finally the death of Krillin driving Goku mad enough to send his powers skyrocketing enough to defeat Freeza. Goku couldn't just beat Freeza as himself, with all the chaos, destruction and sacrifice up to that point, it had to be something like the Super Saiyan.
By contrast, Kaio-Blue just happens. Goku talks about how it'll kill him and then it doesn't, though in fairness to Super's writing, Goku does lose the match by overexerting himself which lead to some development for Hit, so there was some consequence and reward out of it.
No, I'm not. I understand what you're saying narratively, I just disagree with you.
I fundamentally disagree with your notion of what does or doesn't constitute an "earned" victory. (Which isn't to say that I think some wins or loses can be bullshit, just that your way of describing them is very flawed, to me).
Edited by LSBK on Sep 3rd 2018 at 8:58:57 AM
Well, for one thing the two situation aren't anywhere near the same level of seriousness.
Nothing is lost from Goku revealing Kaioken-Blue in this tournament because there are no (meaningful) stakes. Just moving the Earth to Universe 6 or not, which is acknowledged as not actually changing anything for anyone on Earth. It's basically just revealing he can do it, so later on when he uses it during actually important shit no one is surprised.
Of course, the actual usage of it during the rest of Super was shit, but that's besides the point for this conversation.
Edited by LSBK on Sep 3rd 2018 at 9:04:49 AM
x3 That's a bit of a concise way to put it, but kinda sorta, yeah.
By contrast, Vegeta does basically the exact same thing when he goes Beyond Blue (is that the official name? IDK). However I like it more because despite it being fundamentally similar to Kaio-Blue, I feel it was earned. Vegeta has to take on Toppo and power through the literal essence of Destruction and face someone even stronger than that by drawing on, well, the power of his love for his family, his promise to Cabba and his drive to be perpetually stronger than he already is. It's just as cliche, but it's built up as a rewarding venture because of Vegeta's character growth. It's not just Vegeta adding more numbers to his power level, even though it might as well be that.
The essence of writing is taking someone you know is going to win at the end and deluding the audience into thinking they won't until the last minute.
Edited by Mr.Badguy on Sep 3rd 2018 at 10:06:41 AM
Yeeeeeeeeeeah Vegeta’s Power-up is just a friendship boost, a shitty one at that.
It’s literally “I feel something so I’m a gonna get stronger” & his “character development” doesn’t excuse that it’s not done well.
I mean Seven Deadly Sins just a had chapter where a character undergoes a transformation solely because “my girls in trouble so I gotta morph & suddenly turn the tide”.
It’s pretty much the same shit Fairy Tail does every time.
Edited by slimcoder on Sep 3rd 2018 at 7:12:16 AM
"I am Alpharius. This is a lie."What about Super Saiya-jin Blue 2 was a thing...?
Rules of the Internet 45. Rule 45 is a lie. Check out my art if you notice.But surprisingly not, I have to disagree with this as well. Good writing isn't about deluding people. I've seen plenty of things that have had outcomes that I saw coming but still loved because they were executed incredibly well.
From my experience, things like this are more likely to come from subpar things that thing "surprise" equates with "good".
x3 Oh yes, it is absolutely just Vegeta getting stronger because of the Power of Love. It's a well worn cliche.
It's just that, well, it's anime and I'm already used to that being a thing, and Vegeta's been such a complete hardass for so long that seeing him develop this way across Super is genuinely touching. I love what's been done with his character.
If you open up a book and know what's going to happen right from the word go without ever having read it before, you might as well not bother. Even works that stick to tried and true tropes need to have something to them to make them stand out, which includes things like strong writing, clever subversion, and yes, surprises.
I'm sure as hell not coming to Dragon Ball expecting any kind of clever subversions or interesting new writing techniques.
Edited by Mr.Badguy on Sep 3rd 2018 at 10:23:27 AM

Goku also hasn't had an actual victory since Frieza.
He lost to 19, was out for most of the Cell Saga, forfeited against Cell, his rematch with Majin Vegeta ended inconclusively, he only distracted Fat Buu for a bit, & his battle with Kid Buu was a team effort of Vegeta & Fat Buu buying time.
Edited by slimcoder on Sep 3rd 2018 at 6:20:36 AM
"I am Alpharius. This is a lie."