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slimcoder The Head of the Hydra Since: May, 2013
The Head of the Hydra
#31401: Sep 3rd 2018 at 11:58:47 AM

The key difference is Toppo discarded his ideals in a last disparate bid to prevent the absolute annihilation of his universe.

He is the true embodiment of selflessness.

[up] That makes sense. Both fights involved the Final Explosion but only one was technically “Final” about it.

Edited by slimcoder on Sep 3rd 2018 at 12:02:57 PM

"I am Alpharius. This is a lie."
Sigilbreaker26 Serial Procrastinator Since: Nov, 2017
Serial Procrastinator
#31402: Sep 3rd 2018 at 12:01:45 PM

Neither of them were final. Both times he didn't permanently die and the first one did fuck all to Majin Buu.

They're about as final as his flashes.

"And when the last law was down and the Devil turned round on you, where would you hide, the laws all being flat?"
randomness4 Ghost '11 from The Land of Inconvenience Since: Sep, 2011
Ghost '11
#31403: Sep 3rd 2018 at 12:03:44 PM

Well, he died after the first one...and didn't come back for a significant amount of time...(who knows how short that was)

If he actually didn't reform, he wouldn't have came back...but that's just ideal.

Edited by randomness4 on Sep 3rd 2018 at 12:03:46 PM

Rules of the Internet 45. Rule 45 is a lie. Check out my art if you notice.
Mr.Badguy Since: May, 2013 Relationship Status: YOU'RE TEARING ME APART LISA
#31404: Sep 3rd 2018 at 12:06:23 PM

I mean, "you obtained power BUT AT WHAT COST" is one of those really common character traits, and even in his Godly form I do think Toppo was getting a little sadistic. Then again I think the Tournament had a lot of real writing issues like how nobody really cared that entire universes were getting wiped just so the Zen'Bros wouldn't look like total psychopaths for erasing, even if the twist ending made them even worse.

You're right that Toppo didn't, like, willingly turn evil again and murder a stadium full of people, but I think the parallel was intended, and it worked.

thok That's Dr. Title, thank you! (4 Score & 7 Years Ago) Relationship Status: Non-Canon
That's Dr. Title, thank you!
#31405: Sep 3rd 2018 at 12:08:48 PM

Given the actual reasons for the Tournament of Power, Toppo already failed by abandoning his beliefs and going God of Destruction; if he had won the Tournament of Power in that state, he would have made a nihilistic wish that would have led Zen'o to eliminate all of the Universes.

(It's worth noting that Toppo recoveries quickly from the desperation that made him go God of Destruction and gets to redeem himself; his speech to inspire Jiren at the end prevented Frieza from being in position to make that wish.)

LSBK Since: Sep, 2014
#31406: Sep 3rd 2018 at 12:12:07 PM

I mean, the actual reasons for the Tournament of Power were dumb as shit, though. That doesn't make the situation better.

Anyway back to something TFS related, while obviously the characterizations in abridged aren't supposed to be taken as how the characters actually act in the real thing, I feel like it's pretty safe to say they are indictive of how TFS views those characters, at least somewhat.

Edited by LSBK on Sep 3rd 2018 at 3:41:35 AM

randomness4 Ghost '11 from The Land of Inconvenience Since: Sep, 2011
Ghost '11
#31407: Sep 3rd 2018 at 12:28:17 PM

Most definitely.

And ya know what that means, Veggie is a bad father.

Troo facts.

Rules of the Internet 45. Rule 45 is a lie. Check out my art if you notice.
WillKeaton from Alberta, Canada Since: Jun, 2010
#31408: Sep 3rd 2018 at 12:45:09 PM

I think, as time went by, Vegeta became a better father, while Goku became a worse one.

randomness4 Ghost '11 from The Land of Inconvenience Since: Sep, 2011
Ghost '11
#31409: Sep 3rd 2018 at 12:49:42 PM

Yes and they're both in the middle coming from opposite ends.

Edited by randomness4 on Sep 3rd 2018 at 12:49:21 PM

Rules of the Internet 45. Rule 45 is a lie. Check out my art if you notice.
Moth13 Since: Sep, 2010
#31410: Sep 3rd 2018 at 12:51:52 PM

I wasn't a fan of Vegeta vs Toppo but I thought Vegeta's last stand against Jiren was very good.

BlackYakuzu94 CHADhan Player. from Easy Coast/NY Since: May, 2013 Relationship Status: Longing for my OTP
CHADhan Player.
#31411: Sep 3rd 2018 at 1:54:06 PM

It kind of loses meaning when you realize that Freeza and 17 are still in the tournament, so it's not like they were in any real danger :V

And it's ironic that we're pointing out Abridged for changing events to make characters look better, but Toriyama kind of does that too lol. So I guess it depends on who you prefer to look stupid in the end.

A lazy millennial who's good at what he does.
LSBK Since: Sep, 2014
#31412: Sep 3rd 2018 at 3:42:09 PM

Yeah, I do find it interesting that this sequence does have much the same issue as the real version, i.e. Gohan having to get over a problem he didn't have until this fight even if the problem is somewhat different.

How would you have changed it, if you could?

Edited by LSBK on Sep 3rd 2018 at 5:41:45 AM

Sigilbreaker26 Serial Procrastinator Since: Nov, 2017
Serial Procrastinator
#31413: Sep 3rd 2018 at 3:55:37 PM

I'd do a slightly meta version where Gohan breaks down into despair at yet another enemy to fight - slightly meta in that he realises that there's just going to be one enemy after another and the battle never stops, there's always going to be someone new, even stronger, to fight. (Goku is shocked because it's this fact of the universe that basically makes him get up in the morning. Now that I think about it, it's not even meta - Gohan's explicitly struggling with the thesis of the series laid down by Master Roshi in the 21st BT that it has never betrayed, not ever, not in OG or Z or even GT or Super. There's always someone stronger.)

Sort of "say I manage it, say I make this one-in-a-million shot, and kill Cell, just like we beat Raditz with a one-in-a-million shot, just like we beat Vegeta, just like we beat Freeza. Who's next? What's the point batting down one of these people when there's always another one waiting in the wings?"

Cell is angry because that would just make him a stop on the road and goes to wipe out the gang with Vegeta Jr. Jr. (and co). Android 16 gives Gohan a pep talk by saying that - unlike him, who's programming would end with Goku's demise - Gohan is blessed by having obstacles that never stop and experiences that are wonderous even as they're terrifying (he's 11 - and he's literally gone to outer space and helped save the world!). Then Cell squishes him.

Edited by Sigilbreaker26 on Sep 3rd 2018 at 11:12:39 AM

"And when the last law was down and the Devil turned round on you, where would you hide, the laws all being flat?"
BlackYakuzu94 CHADhan Player. from Easy Coast/NY Since: May, 2013 Relationship Status: Longing for my OTP
CHADhan Player.
#31414: Sep 3rd 2018 at 4:01:31 PM

I like the idea that Gohan is so afraid of his power that he has no idea what would happen if he just cut loose, but he would subconsciously hold himself back rather than intentionally. If Gohan actually was weaker than Goku as a result of that, it would make Piccolo's outburst much more believable.

In fact, Gohan expositing about his hidden power to Cell kind of kills the buildup to it. Gohan could just want to do his best, but feel like he's not as good as Goku and holds himself back. Piccolo, not understanding this since he can see Gohan is weaker, questions why would he send Gohan out.

Goku then tells him that he wants Gohan to reach his full potential as a fighter and a person. None of that "Gohan doesn't like to fight" stuff.

A lazy millennial who's good at what he does.
AdvFinny Since: Apr, 2014
#31415: Sep 3rd 2018 at 4:15:25 PM

This episode was lacking in humor, but I gotta say Team Four Star does a great job at making Cell an intimidating villain. I love how cutting his words are.

randomness4 Ghost '11 from The Land of Inconvenience Since: Sep, 2011
Ghost '11
#31416: Sep 3rd 2018 at 4:19:36 PM

And Piccoro remains an idiot, nice.

Rules of the Internet 45. Rule 45 is a lie. Check out my art if you notice.
Ghilz Perpetually Confused from Yeeted at Relativistic Velocities Since: Jan, 2001 Relationship Status: Barbecuing
Perpetually Confused
#31417: Sep 3rd 2018 at 4:23:33 PM

Now real question.

If they adapt the Buu saga, will Gohan having won a lifetime supply of Hetap be a thing?

Sigilbreaker26 Serial Procrastinator Since: Nov, 2017
Serial Procrastinator
#31418: Sep 3rd 2018 at 4:28:01 PM

Would be a bit hard to explain him being kind of unpopular at high school.

"And when the last law was down and the Devil turned round on you, where would you hide, the laws all being flat?"
Ghilz Perpetually Confused from Yeeted at Relativistic Velocities Since: Jan, 2001 Relationship Status: Barbecuing
Perpetually Confused
#31419: Sep 3rd 2018 at 4:29:42 PM

Other kids are jealous of his Hetap. Simple.

We've seen how badly people react to running out of Hetap.

randomness4 Ghost '11 from The Land of Inconvenience Since: Sep, 2011
Ghost '11
#31420: Sep 3rd 2018 at 4:31:01 PM

Those were just ads...but Veggie did threaten to kill someone for drinking the last one.

Rules of the Internet 45. Rule 45 is a lie. Check out my art if you notice.
thok That's Dr. Title, thank you! (4 Score & 7 Years Ago) Relationship Status: Non-Canon
That's Dr. Title, thank you!
#31421: Sep 3rd 2018 at 4:35:45 PM

You're assuming that Gohan doesn't just donate his lifetime supply of Hetap to support the rebuilding of Nicky Town.

HandsomeRob Leader of the Holey Brotherhood from The land of broken records Since: Jan, 2015
Leader of the Holey Brotherhood
#31422: Sep 3rd 2018 at 4:36:04 PM

[up]

This is true.

I'd do a slightly meta version where Gohan breaks down into despair at yet another enemy to fight - slightly meta in that he realises that there's just going to be one enemy after another and the battle never stops, there's always going to be someone new, even stronger, to fight. (Goku is shocked because it's this fact of the universe that basically makes him get up in the morning. Now that I think about it, it's not even meta - Gohan's explicitly struggling with the thesis of the series laid down by Master Roshi in the 21st BT that it has never betrayed, not ever, not in OG or Z or even GT or Super. There's always someone stronger.)

Sort of "say I manage it, say I make this one-in-a-million shot, and kill Cell, just like we beat Raditz with a one-in-a-million shot, just like we beat Vegeta, just like we beat Freeza. Who's next? What's the point batting down one of these people when there's always another one waiting in the wings?"

Cell is angry because that would just make him a stop on the road and goes to wipe out the gang with Vegeta Jr. Jr. (and co). Android 16 gives Gohan a pep talk by saying that - unlike him, who's programming would end with Goku's demise - Gohan is blessed by having obstacles that never stop and experiences that are wonderous even as they're terrifying (he's 11 - and he's literally gone to outer space and helped save the world!). Then Cell squishes him.

Oh, I kinda like that. The idea that Gohan fights the battle to end the battle, but do to the nature of the series and a new, far more powerful enemy showing up without fail, he's become depressed at the idea that beating Cell won't matter in the end...that being said, I don't think it would work (it'd kinda make him a dick).

I still kinda like it though.

One Strip! One Strip!
Eriorguez Since: Jun, 2009
#31423: Sep 3rd 2018 at 5:53:38 PM

Erm, detail on the previous page: Vegeta got a transformation to be on par with Kaioken Blue Goku. Confirmed on interviews.

So you have to blame Toei getting back the flashy numerical multiplier whose only achievement was making Blue feel insufficient.

Mr.Badguy Since: May, 2013 Relationship Status: YOU'RE TEARING ME APART LISA
#31424: Sep 3rd 2018 at 6:18:25 PM

Kaioken Blue was so dumb.

I liked Goku better when he earned his victories.

So basically not since he fought Vegeta for the first time (though his first transformation into a Super Saiyan is the bee's knees).

LSBK Since: Sep, 2014
#31425: Sep 3rd 2018 at 6:20:20 PM

The way it was used was dumb, but the concept itself isn't bad, I think.

I don't see what that has to do with "earning" victories.

Edited by LSBK on Sep 3rd 2018 at 8:20:11 AM


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