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Dragon Ball Z Abridged

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Saiga Since: Feb, 2011 Relationship Status: Getting away with murder
#31376: Sep 3rd 2018 at 5:52:32 AM

We really can't measure how long Gotenks took, or how long his nap was. The entire thing was within 30 minutes.

Piccolo would have had to fight them at full power in any event just to buy time for guys to finish in the ROSAT, which is his original intention (unless you're seriously thinking that he could even stall against any of them without using full power or close enough to it that Cell would detect it). He only goes for the kill against 17 when he realises that they're not going to gank him and he has the opportunity to snipe one of Cell's components. I'm guessing that he would have been able to kill 17 based on 17's comment afterwards (the scan I'm reading says "so close" from 17, implying it might have killed or seriously damaged him), but even if he didn't it was the best move he could have taken, and nothing would have changed if he'd tried to stall. Any attempt to try and shoot the breeze might have worked, as could lying, but even if they took the bait there's no guarantee that Cell won't just figure out where they are from the trail of destruction that they're leaving. Any move Piccolo takes at this point is a huge gamble and he goes for the one that has the biggest rewards.

You can argue against this being an intelligence feat but it's not possible to argue it as being a moment of stupidity.

I never said anything about fighting without being at full power. Why are you responding to points I'm not making?

And Piccolo wasn't clear what his intention was, he just said he'd fight them and jumped at the first opportunity to. It's still not the best idea to suggest straight up, especially when he wasn't sure he could win.

If that was truly his intent, he has nothing to lose to leave fighting them as a last resort. That just means buying more time. So no, not taking the gamble with the best rewards - it wasn't until after he'd settled on that that he saw an opportunity - but instead immediately escalating things to the last resort. And that's why it can easily be argued to be stupid, the alternatives carried no risk worse than the plan he first opted for.

What trail of destruction? They'd only done damage in a few spread out locations that Cell had no knowledge of, and were flying around at that point.

Luring Buu into another dimension so he can trap him there is one of the smartest plans literally anyone comes up with in Dragonball (so of course it fails). Simple doesn't mean dumb. Slicing the Gordian Knot is simple, teleporting Cell to King Kai's planet is simple but it's also Goku's best intelligence feat and you don't see me downplaying that. Using the ROSAT like that is a bit of lateral thinking that nearly ends the crisis right then and there.

And no, I wouldn't call it one of the smartest plans in the series, it's just too obvious. I never said that simple means dumb, that is not the argument I am making and I have tried to stress this point repeatedly. This is not a dichotomy where saying it's not smart means I'm calling it dumb.

In fairness, he probably thought Buu would take his time, since he's shown a lot of sadistic behaviour before and so has basically every other villain they've faced for the previous 3 arcs.

That doesn't seem like a reasonable assumption, given that Fat Boo was established as being even more destructive without Babidi and then Evil Boo comes and shows that he is even more impatient than Fat Boo was, demanding an immediate fight.

Consistent behaviour is precisely what we're arguing about here since there are character inconsistencies all over the place. That translation isn't even calling him a dumbass, it's just calling him a sober mind - there's a massive difference between something just not saying someone's intelligent and something specifically saying someone's dumb and trying to stretch the former into the latter is laughable.

I am not calling him dumb for having a sober mind. Please stop saying that about every point I make where I explicitly clarify that. I am calling him dumb for the consistently dumb things he does (the ones you're not responding to) and the lack of intelligent things to outweigh this.

sgamer82 Since: Jan, 2001
#31377: Sep 3rd 2018 at 6:39:28 AM

Hate's got nothing to do with accuracy
Truer words have never been spoken, but probably not in the way Kamiccolo meant them. I can think of three times, offhand and on this very forum, that inaccurate statements were made to justify hating a fictional character.

Edited by sgamer82 on Sep 3rd 2018 at 7:53:08 AM

randomness4 Ghost '11 from The Land of Inconvenience Since: Sep, 2011
Ghost '11
#31378: Sep 3rd 2018 at 6:48:38 AM

Discussion about how smart Piccoro is?

LLLLLKKKKK

I don't see the connection...or why it matters that TFS changed it.

Rules of the Internet 45. Rule 45 is a lie. Check out my art if you notice.
Sigilbreaker26 Serial Procrastinator Since: Nov, 2017
Serial Procrastinator
#31379: Sep 3rd 2018 at 6:51:19 AM

"And Piccolo wasn't clear what his intention was, he just said he'd fight them and jumped at the first opportunity to. It's still not the best idea to suggest straight up, especially when he wasn't sure he could win.

If that was truly his intent, he has nothing to lose to leave fighting them as a last resort. That just means buying more time. So no, not taking the gamble with the best rewards - it wasn't until after he'd settled on that that he saw an opportunity - but instead immediately escalating things to the last resort. And that's why it can easily be argued to be stupid, the alternatives carried no risk worse than the plan he first opted for.

What trail of destruction? They'd only done damage in a few spread out locations that Cell had no knowledge of, and were flying around at that point."

Piccolo says that their options for victory are killing either Cell or the Androids before they meet (since he is currently stronger than Cell). This is true. He and Tien actually go after Cell first (because he's alone) but Cell hides his energy; Piccolo doesn't actively pursue the androids until they force a confrontation at Roshi's house, and it is definitely forcing a confrontation because even if they tell them where Goku is or lie the Androids could very well kill them anyway (and no dragonballs, remember), and they can't stand up to a gank from all three with just the people they have. Piccolo tries to buy time by going to fight them alone... and then 17 steps up to bat alone.

Piccolo, in the moment where 17 says he's going to fight alone, has a unique opportunity; even if they let him go if he tells them where Goku is (or lies) Cell might figure out how to track them down or simply stumble across them. If he lets them go the situation goes out of his control. But if he attacks right now, he holds all the cards; 17 doesn't know that he's gotten insanely stronger, killing 17 outright stops Cell's win condition. He could try to stall for longer, but they might very well leave or get angry and gank Piccolo.

There were elements of risk in every action he could have possibly taken. And given that Piccolo was stronger enough than Cell that Cell fled, him estimating his own strength as far enough beyond 17's to get a win outright is actually fairly plausible.

Edited by Sigilbreaker26 on Sep 3rd 2018 at 1:56:26 PM

"And when the last law was down and the Devil turned round on you, where would you hide, the laws all being flat?"
HandsomeRob Leader of the Holey Brotherhood from The land of broken records Since: Jan, 2015
Leader of the Holey Brotherhood
#31380: Sep 3rd 2018 at 8:27:56 AM

Also, who gives a shit about Cooler 2?

This guy does. I've said multiple times that Cooler 2 is my first experience with DBZ, so I won't tolerate anyone mouthing it off, even if it's not up to snuff compared to what came before, or what came after.

Also, we have no way of knowing whether his trick would have killed 17 if not for the shield. That's too big an assumption to then give him credit over it.

See, I'd assume that the fact that 17 felt he even needed a shield indicates that the attack could have killed him, but I'm willing to admit that the inability of 17 to sense power levels (and the fact that Piccolo couldn't sense 17's) means there is some wiggle room on that one. At the least we can say that 17 thought it was enough of a threat to use the barrier.

I'm just gonna say everyone fucks up in the Android / Cell Saga at some point, starting from not attacking Gero from the start.

One Strip! One Strip!
sgamer82 Since: Jan, 2001
#31381: Sep 3rd 2018 at 8:30:25 AM

I've had a soft spot for Cooler 2, myself, because it gave me what I always thought was a cool line (paraphrased): "Being mortal is what makes us able to do the impossible."

Sigilbreaker26 Serial Procrastinator Since: Nov, 2017
Serial Procrastinator
#31382: Sep 3rd 2018 at 9:08:24 AM

Cooler 2 is in a rough spot for me, coming as it does around when DBZ movies really started to stink. It's not utterly forgettable like Android 13, and it doesn't have anything as offensively stupid as Broly's backstory, but the stuff in it is just so obviously phoning it in. Also, it has a contender for the stupidist movie villain kill in the series and that is a very crowded field.

"And when the last law was down and the Devil turned round on you, where would you hide, the laws all being flat?"
Mr.Badguy Since: May, 2013 Relationship Status: YOU'RE TEARING ME APART LISA
#31383: Sep 3rd 2018 at 9:10:19 AM

Speaking of Broly, I am surprisingly on board with his introduction to Dragon Ball canon and I hope Cooler follows suit. To a lesser degree Tapion too, but he'd be hard to squeeze in.

randomness4 Ghost '11 from The Land of Inconvenience Since: Sep, 2011
Ghost '11
#31384: Sep 3rd 2018 at 9:11:54 AM

What if Broccoli hated both Kakarotto and Veggie?

Then would his backstory still be stupid?

Rules of the Internet 45. Rule 45 is a lie. Check out my art if you notice.
sgamer82 Since: Jan, 2001
#31385: Sep 3rd 2018 at 9:15:15 AM

If it's still caused by trauma of being placed to another screaming newborn baby? Yes.

Sigilbreaker26 Serial Procrastinator Since: Nov, 2017
Serial Procrastinator
#31386: Sep 3rd 2018 at 9:19:52 AM

Actually if he has some sort of memory of Vegeta because King Vegeta stabbed him... that would at least be plausible. Would make for a Vegeta centric film, and... I might actually be okay with that. I know the many, many Vegeta fans would be as well.

Still doesn't fix the glaring plot hole of him escaping the planet. Honestly they should have had Paragus break out and get on a spaceship with him to escape the Saiyans, only for any pursuit to be destroyed when Freeza blew up the planet.

Edited by Sigilbreaker26 on Sep 3rd 2018 at 4:25:07 PM

"And when the last law was down and the Devil turned round on you, where would you hide, the laws all being flat?"
Mr.Badguy Since: May, 2013 Relationship Status: YOU'RE TEARING ME APART LISA
#31387: Sep 3rd 2018 at 9:22:50 AM

Vegeta's become the actual good main character of Super, so why not.

Sigilbreaker26 Serial Procrastinator Since: Nov, 2017
Serial Procrastinator
#31388: Sep 3rd 2018 at 9:24:17 AM

No character is good in Super, except maybe Bulma. (And a couple new additions, like Beerus and Hit).

Vegeta got really tiresome in how long he took to get ringed out. Without his character arc his shtick gets really old as well, sort of the opposite problem to Z where he sort of overshadowed the rest of the cast at times by actually having one.

Goku is worse in Super, don't get me wrong, but they had to turn his most obnoxious traits up to 11. For Vegeta, all they had to do was remove what made him special and I think that's actually more heartbreaking.

Edited by Sigilbreaker26 on Sep 3rd 2018 at 4:28:23 PM

"And when the last law was down and the Devil turned round on you, where would you hide, the laws all being flat?"
Mr.Badguy Since: May, 2013 Relationship Status: YOU'RE TEARING ME APART LISA
#31389: Sep 3rd 2018 at 9:28:17 AM

Unlike Goku for the last 30 years Vegeta has gone through an arc that's lasted Super, becoming an honourable, heroic warrior whose determination is fueled by his desire to protect his family and fulfill a promise.

He's a giant teddy bear now and Dragon Ball is better for it.

randomness4 Ghost '11 from The Land of Inconvenience Since: Sep, 2011
Ghost '11
#31390: Sep 3rd 2018 at 9:30:00 AM

If Veggie still had his development, he might've been shown to be a better husband in Super...

And makes a Your Mom joke on Trunks.

Like in GT.

Rules of the Internet 45. Rule 45 is a lie. Check out my art if you notice.
slimcoder The Head of the Hydra Since: May, 2013
The Head of the Hydra
#31391: Sep 3rd 2018 at 11:19:20 AM

Shame Geets became insufferable in the TOP.

They totally missed the point of the Vegeta Jobbing.

"I am Alpharius. This is a lie."
HandsomeRob Leader of the Holey Brotherhood from The land of broken records Since: Jan, 2015
Leader of the Holey Brotherhood
#31392: Sep 3rd 2018 at 11:24:22 AM

Yeah. Vegeta was good at jobbing (since he was allowed to be built up so his failure had purpose), and it made him less insufferable because he got stomped into the ground so frequently.

One Strip! One Strip!
Mr.Badguy Since: May, 2013 Relationship Status: YOU'RE TEARING ME APART LISA
#31393: Sep 3rd 2018 at 11:31:07 AM

What? Vegeta's amazing during the TOP. It's the culmination of everything he's become since Super (and I mean that in a good way before someone gets snarky with me).

Attaining his ultimate power, going beyond SSB, because he wants to protect his family and resurrect Cabba, that was brilliant. Vegeta hasn't been what his fans think he is since the end of the Buu Saga.

slimcoder The Head of the Hydra Since: May, 2013
The Head of the Hydra
#31394: Sep 3rd 2018 at 11:35:46 AM

All they did was just repeating how much of a family man he is & gave him like 3 last stands.

Plus that new transformation is frankly lame & was completely pointless (his victory over Toppo was bullshit).

He should have been knocked out in the first round against Jiren.

Edited by slimcoder on Sep 3rd 2018 at 11:38:05 AM

"I am Alpharius. This is a lie."
Mr.Badguy Since: May, 2013 Relationship Status: YOU'RE TEARING ME APART LISA
#31395: Sep 3rd 2018 at 11:43:21 AM

heckin what man

Like I can't stand transformations in this series but it at least felt earned rather than almost all of them since Gohan going SS 2 against Cell. It felt like him pushing himself over his own limits, rather than just getting handed a new power boost. And while "I got a 1-up from believing in myself" is standard in anime it meant all the more because this is Vegeta we're talking about.

Then again my favourite Vegeta scene of all time is the one in Battle of Gods where he dances to distract Beerus so what I value in Vegeta is pretty clearly different.

slimcoder The Head of the Hydra Since: May, 2013
The Head of the Hydra
#31396: Sep 3rd 2018 at 11:46:25 AM

He only got the transformation because Goku got Ultra Instinct so they felt the need to give him something so Goku won’t leave him in the dust like always.

Supa Blew 2 is about as earned as every other transformation.

"I am Alpharius. This is a lie."
thok That's Dr. Title, thank you! (4 Score & 7 Years Ago) Relationship Status: Non-Canon
That's Dr. Title, thank you!
#31397: Sep 3rd 2018 at 11:52:33 AM

I think Vegeta's not quite done with his heroic journey yet (it would be nice to see him be able to form a true connection with a non-Saiyan other than Bulma), but that doesn't mean his victory over Toppo wasn't a natural part of his journey.

BlackYakuzu94 CHADhan Player. from Easy Coast/NY Since: May, 2013 Relationship Status: Longing for my OTP
CHADhan Player.
#31398: Sep 3rd 2018 at 11:55:16 AM

Super is bad at characterization and pay off. Tell me something new.

A lazy millennial who's good at what he does.
Mr.Badguy Since: May, 2013 Relationship Status: YOU'RE TEARING ME APART LISA
#31399: Sep 3rd 2018 at 11:55:32 AM

Yeah, it's a fight where Vegeta draws upon his love for his family to fight against an overwhelming threat who discarded every ideal and feeling he previously had in order to obtain power, ultimately causing his downfall.

Just like a certain someone.

randomness4 Ghost '11 from The Land of Inconvenience Since: Sep, 2011
Ghost '11
#31400: Sep 3rd 2018 at 11:58:44 AM

It's like his fight against Fat Boo, but less effective.

Rules of the Internet 45. Rule 45 is a lie. Check out my art if you notice.

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