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LSBK Since: Sep, 2014
#31201: Sep 1st 2018 at 2:40:41 PM

The hatred's not hard to understand. First, it completely violates Show don't Tell, secondly, it leads to loads and loads and loads of arguments.

I mean, I frankly think people grossly abuse Show, Don't Tell to them point that it's very close to becoming meaningless.

That being said, I don't see how because when a character was said to be however much stronger than whoever they were also shown to demonstrate that strength. So it shouldn't even be an issue then.

Edited by LSBK on Sep 1st 2018 at 4:40:35 AM

KnownUnknown Since: Jan, 2001
#31202: Sep 1st 2018 at 2:44:51 PM

There's also the narrative issue that explicitly setting in stone the categorization and scope of a character's potential and abilites is limiting in regards to the way the story can use them in the future, which is almost certainly why Toriyama stopped using explicit numerical designation (or at least, stopped putting them in the story itself) and instead denotes power in more general - but still clear and well defined - means after Freeza.

Well, that and the numbers getting way to large to fit in a speech bubble.

But that's entirely beside the conversation you guys are having in a general sense.

Edited by KnownUnknown on Sep 1st 2018 at 2:47:18 AM

HandsomeRob Leader of the Holey Brotherhood from The land of broken records Since: Jan, 2015
Leader of the Holey Brotherhood
#31203: Sep 1st 2018 at 2:48:58 PM

Tien managing to beat Drum but then getting easily handled by Piccolo, or Piccolo managing to put Nappa on the ropes, just for him to target Gohan and trigger the sacrifice, would had made for more entertaining fights, in my opinion.

You mean, have them struggle, but don't beat us down with ''there's absolutely nothing they can do but get their asses kicked until Goku arrives just in time to save them but easily destroying the dude they couldn't even put a dent in?

Yeah. This could work. I think it would still show they are in dire straights, but not make them nothing more than stepping stones and measuring sticks for Goku and his latest power up. And this is after I recognized that the way Toriyama actually did it was somewhat effective...even if massively overused.

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Sigilbreaker26 Serial Procrastinator Since: Nov, 2017
Serial Procrastinator
#31204: Sep 1st 2018 at 2:52:14 PM

It should be noted that *I* don't hate them as such, because I appreciate how they're used in the Saiyan arc (and hey, memes!) and really as you say, they're not really changing what we were seeing too much.

I do think most of the time I see people complain about them they're usually complaining about Dragonball becoming nothing but fight after fight.

That being said, comparing them to equivalents like Capture Levels in Toriko (which are often comprised of multiple factors involving the rarity of an animal and most importantly, how difficult it is to get its food) let alone bounties in One Piece (which broadly serve as a power indicator but reinforce the worldbuilding since they actually measure how much the World Government wants you dead) shows that numbers can be very versatile for storytelling; but they need to measure more than mere power to do this.

Edited by Sigilbreaker26 on Sep 1st 2018 at 9:53:08 AM

"And when the last law was down and the Devil turned round on you, where would you hide, the laws all being flat?"
KnownUnknown Since: Jan, 2001
#31205: Sep 1st 2018 at 2:58:58 PM

I've noticed that while Dragonball codified the use of Power Levels in shonen, most series afterwards implemented it in a more broad strokes way, allowing more leeway in their implementation and more range in terms of how it can be used in plot and character design afterwards. The "if you have X power ranking, nobody below that ranking can ever harm you" bit is especially something that sometimes catches on, and sometimes doesn't.

Another good example is Yu Yu Hakusho, which introduces levels for powers of demons (and humans, technically, but it's meant to be used for demons in universe), but more or less just used it as a way to say "after this point in the plot, it can be assumed that all the bad guys are stronger than the bad guys before this point" in a general sense while not having the characters the heroes face be limited in range of power, ability or weaknesses, or likewise the heroes' abilties to fight against them.

The one time the series rigidly tried to go "powering up to S Class means your power level does this!" it was one of the things that resulted in one of the lesser acclaimed fights in the series (though still liked overall, iirc) and the series shifted gears immediately after.

Edited by KnownUnknown on Sep 1st 2018 at 3:03:06 AM

slimcoder The Head of the Hydra Since: May, 2013
The Head of the Hydra
#31206: Sep 1st 2018 at 3:03:41 PM

Ya know I found it a bit hypocritical for Piccolo to give the "your never there" speech to Goku when its kinda his fault why the latter left the first time around.

He did want to kill Goku back then after all.

"I am Alpharius. This is a lie."
TwistedGear Don't know how to pilot this thing Since: Jun, 2014
Don't know how to pilot this thing
#31207: Sep 1st 2018 at 3:05:28 PM

First, I was talking about the Raditz fight. Second, I'm baffled that anyone would WANT the rule to exist, considering if the power levels were that reliable, we have the plothole of why Bulma didn't invent/keep a scouter for herself to make it possible to see danger coming, and why when babidi and Dabura brought it back in the form of Kili's it still was presented as unreliable. It was only ever presented as something that inexperienced fighters relied on which I think is a pretty clear indicator that it goes further than just being flawed and is absolutely useless. Given how the numbers don't even add up once Frieza starts giving his insanely high power levels despite him still needing to put work in to defeat anyone, it's better to only rely on those numbers for people who rely on them, because they don't seem to apply to the Z fighters at all. Heck, the Ginyu force was basically a full demonstration of things that power levels don't account for: non-standard powers, abnormal speed, durability, and teamwork.

LSBK Since: Sep, 2014
#31208: Sep 1st 2018 at 3:11:17 PM

Edit: I need to take time to really pick that post apart, so I'll get back to it.

Edited by LSBK on Sep 1st 2018 at 5:16:36 AM

HandsomeRob Leader of the Holey Brotherhood from The land of broken records Since: Jan, 2015
Leader of the Holey Brotherhood
#31209: Sep 1st 2018 at 3:16:02 PM

Frieza wasn't never really trying. He's a sadist who wanted to make them suffer by showing them how utterly boned they were. When it looked like what he was giving wasn't quite enough, he just started using more power to keep the battle at a comfortable level of Curb-Stomp Battle.

One Strip! One Strip!
VeryMelon Since: Jul, 2011 Relationship Status: Anime is my true love
#31210: Sep 1st 2018 at 3:17:16 PM

Lots of old fans have misconceptions of how the series worked. It's not uncommon in this day and age.

HandsomeRob Leader of the Holey Brotherhood from The land of broken records Since: Jan, 2015
Leader of the Holey Brotherhood
#31211: Sep 1st 2018 at 3:24:56 PM

[up]

Who has two thumbs and can admit to being on that list?

<Sees damn near every troper raise their hands>

...um, was just talking about myself here people. -_-;

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sgamer82 Since: Jan, 2001
#31212: Sep 1st 2018 at 3:26:56 PM

You'd think it'd be new fans who had misconceptions about the series. Unless you're thinking Nostalgia Filter is in effect.

HandsomeRob Leader of the Holey Brotherhood from The land of broken records Since: Jan, 2015
Leader of the Holey Brotherhood
#31213: Sep 1st 2018 at 3:29:05 PM

[up]

Nostalgia Filter and love for specific characters.

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LSBK Since: Sep, 2014
#31214: Sep 1st 2018 at 3:29:10 PM

First, I was talking about the Raditz fight.

I was aware of what you were talking about.

Second, I'm baffled that anyone would WANT the rule to exist, considering if the power levels were that reliable, we have the plothole of why Bulma didn't invent/keep a scouter for herself to make it possible to see danger coming, and why when babidi and Dabura brought it back in the form of Kili's it still was presented as unreliable.

What exactly is supposed to be a plot hole there? She had a scouter, it got the destroyed, the technology was too advanced for her. Dabura and Babidi were caught off guard because Goku and co. were hiding there power. That is not the same thing as the numbers themselves being meaningless.

It was only ever presented as something that inexperienced fighters relied on which I think is a pretty clear indicator that it goes further than just being flawed and is absolutely useless.

No it wasn't. Vegeta notes that against people who can hide their power it's not a lot of help, but again, that's not the same as saying they can't actually measure power. When Captain Ginyu reads Goku's power of 180,000 he knows that means that Goku is (at the moment) much stronger than himself.

Given how the numbers don't even add up once Frieza starts giving his insanely high power levels despite him still needing to put work in to defeat anyone, it's better to only rely on those numbers for people who rely on them, because they don't seem to apply to the Z fighters at all.

This is just a complete misinterpretation of how things went down. Frieza likes playing with his food. He was doing it throughout the entire fight, and really only stopped with the Spirit Bomb/Goku going Super Saiyan. Before that point, anything that seemed like a challenge was meet with him holding back a little less, and then proceeding to steamroll whoever he was fighting easily.

Heck, the Ginyu force was basically a full demonstration of things that power levels don't account for: non-standard powers, abnormal speed, durability, and teamwork.

Guldo was the weakest and killed almost immediately, Recoome completely dominated Vegeta, Gohan, and Krill through pure power alone and then had the same done to him when Goku arrived, Jeice's and Burter's teamwork (and Burter's speed) was completely ineffective in the face of Goku's power, and even when Ginyu stole Goku's body he could barely use Goku's power and was overwhelmed.

The Ginyu Force and their fights are hardly a refutation of power levels. Hell, when Ginyu guesstimates Goku's power level as 60,000 Jeice basically goes "Woah, no wonder we didn't stand a chance against him."

Edited by LSBK on Nov 13th 2019 at 11:51:56 AM

HandsomeRob Leader of the Holey Brotherhood from The land of broken records Since: Jan, 2015
Leader of the Holey Brotherhood
#31215: Sep 1st 2018 at 3:44:06 PM

Heck, the Ginyu force was basically a full demonstration of things that power levels don't account for: non-standard powers, abnormal speed, durability, and teamwork.

Guldo was the weakest and killed almost immediately, Recoome completely dominated Vegeta, Gohan, and Krill through pure power alone and then had the same done to him when Goku arrived, Jeice's and Burter's teamwork (and Burter's speed) was completely ineffective in the face of Goku's power, and even when Ginyu stole Goku's body he could barely use Goku's power and was overwhelmed.

The Ginyu Force and their fights are hardly a refutation of power levels. Hell, when Ginyu guesstimates Goku's power level as 60,000 Jeice basically goes "Woah, no wonder we didn't stand a chance against him."

Well, true, but that was only when he wasn't paying attention after completely paralyzing Krillin and Gohan with an unknown power (Telekinesis) that they couldn't overcome despite their higher levels. Plus, they had zero way around his time stop either, but his weakness prevented him from being able to use it well.

You're right about Recoome, Burter and Jeice (though I suspect Burter's claim of being The Fastest in the universe was massive hyperbole on his part considering both his bosses could utterly dwarf him).

As for Ginyu, I suspect that against anyone else (or alternatively, with more time) he'd have been far less handicapped than he was. It's just that Goku has the devils luck, and things tend to go in his favour even when they don't (just ask Spike the Devil Man).

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LSBK Since: Sep, 2014
#31216: Sep 1st 2018 at 3:48:02 PM

Really, I still think the issue here is some perverse focus on numbers instead of what they represent. It's was just a way of quantifying energy, nothing more, and nothing less.

Edited by LSBK on Sep 1st 2018 at 5:50:41 AM

PushoverMediaCritic I'm sorry Tien, but I must go all out. from the Italy of America Since: Jul, 2015 Relationship Status: watch?v=dQw4w9WgXcQ
I'm sorry Tien, but I must go all out.
#31217: Sep 1st 2018 at 3:49:16 PM

Gohan being stronger than Cell in Super Saiyan 1 is some pure nonsense bullshit. It relies on Toriyama, of all people, already having in mind the Super Saiyan 2 multiplier while writing the series, which is just not true.

Gohan fights Cell in Super Saiyan 1. It's stated that Gohan is a bit stronger than Goku. Cell powers up a bit from his fight with Goku and overpowers Gohan. It's stated that Goku's plan is to rely on Gohan's anger boost, his hidden power, not what he already has. Gohan gets angry while the Cell Jrs are beating everyone up; Cell notes that Gohan's power spiked a bit but he's still not worried. Gohan goes Super Saiyan 2, which absolutely blows everyone away. Cell goes full power, surprising everyone who didn't think he had that much power. Super Saiyan 2 Gohan continues kicking Full Power Cell's ass. Cell goes Super Perfect and injures Gohan, lowering his power. During their beam struggle, a point is made that Gohan is unable to unleash his full Super Saiyan 2 power because of Cell's beam holding him down. Vegeta gives Gohan the opening, and Gohan unleashes his full Super Saiyan 2 power, which is enough to overwhelm Super Perfect Cell.

SS2 Gohan > Super Perfect Cell >>> Full Power Perfect Cell > Perfect Cell (while fighting Gohan) > SS1 Gohan (angry) > SS1 Gohan > Perfect Cell (while fighting Goku) >= SS1 Goku

The only thing contradicting this is a throwaway line that Gohan's ki has been halved, combined with retroactively applying a Super Saiyan 2 multiplier established later on that there's no way Toriyama had in mind when he wrote that scene. The interpretation that Super Saiyan 1 Gohan was stronger than Super Perfect Cell is ridiculous and wrong, and completely breaks the narrative of the whole fight, ignoring many, many statements saying otherwise in favor of a single statement that only supports that if you have knowledge of the future.

Additionally, Gohan saying "my ki is halved" is in a moment of defeatism, and it's followed by Goku saying "that's bull! you've got more power than that!" and Gohan saying "well, alright, I'll try".

randomness4 Ghost '11 from The Land of Inconvenience Since: Sep, 2011
Ghost '11
#31218: Sep 1st 2018 at 3:52:14 PM

If it's BS then don't expect anyone to bring it up again while your around. It's not true.

Rules of the Internet 45. Rule 45 is a lie. Check out my art if you notice.
Alfric Sailing the Skies! from Crescent Isle Since: Aug, 2010 Relationship Status: Maxing my social links
Sailing the Skies!
#31219: Sep 1st 2018 at 3:53:10 PM

My two cents on the whole power levels thing is that I find making it too hard-and-fast a rule is a bit too restrictive and rigid of a system. It's not really a measurement of fighting skill or capability, just of raw power, so while we get the flashy action sequences and all, ultimately it's basically just stronger character shoving their giant numbers down their opponent's throat until they choke on it and die. There's minimal room for potentially interesting fight developments that aren't "other character developed a new transformation and their numbers became larger, therefore they now have the advantage". Mind, I don't hate powerlevels strictly speaking, and I don't mind Dragon Ball because it's good flashy action even if the fights themselves aren't super great in some ways. Plus the whole Show, Don't Tell and arguments points from earlier I agree with. It is kinda funny hearing about how people lose their minds over someone doing something in Super because of how the power levels supposedly measure up, but then I'm hearing it from the outside so I dunno how bad it gets.

Also, on the topic of other variants of power levels, in The Seven Deadly Sins, they have a system where they measure Power (physical strength), Magic (the characters capability with their magical tools and abilities), and Spirit (Determination, basically acts as a booster for the other stats when sufficiently determined). This generally provides a nice benchmark for where characters stand in terms of where their abilities lie without being so rigid that it's just about sheer numbers. Of course, I stopped reading shortly after this so I dunno how things have been going since then.

Edited by Alfric on Sep 1st 2018 at 3:58:32 AM

http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/lb_i.php?lb_id=13239183440B34964700 Alfric's Fire Emblem Liveblog Encyclopedia!
HandsomeRob Leader of the Holey Brotherhood from The land of broken records Since: Jan, 2015
Leader of the Holey Brotherhood
#31220: Sep 1st 2018 at 4:05:18 PM

Well, it is fair that the stronger warrior should win is a truth of the universe. But yeah, ultimately, Toriyama's own laziness meant he judged that entirely on one single stat, which all other abilities are tied to.

There really should have been some other factors taken in, but Toriyama was always about getting things done as quickly as possible.

A method that was pretty effective in the long run.

One Strip! One Strip!
LSBK Since: Sep, 2014
#31221: Sep 1st 2018 at 4:06:55 PM

I mean in Nanatsu No Taizai even though he divided it into three stats it basically used the same as it is here.

All of the human characters become progressively more useless as time goes on because they simply can't compete with the actual magical creatures. Except for one...whose power is totally incidental and doesn't even come from himself.

Edited by LSBK on Sep 1st 2018 at 6:22:33 AM

HandsomeRob Leader of the Holey Brotherhood from The land of broken records Since: Jan, 2015
Leader of the Holey Brotherhood
#31222: Sep 1st 2018 at 4:08:10 PM

...yeah.

The most useful one is only able to do so due to being near literally unkillable. As in True Immortality.

And even he's vulnerable to having his soul sucked out, which is as much a fight ender for him as it is everyone else.

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slimcoder The Head of the Hydra Since: May, 2013
The Head of the Hydra
#31223: Sep 1st 2018 at 4:18:57 PM

Plus I found an extreme numerical system in a medieval setting ill-fitting. They don't even have basic plumbing & yet they somehow have a pseudo-scientific measurment of a persons power involving a lot of numbers.

A recent chapter literally had a character yell out that a villain had a power-level of 200,000 & it just sounded narmy.

It worked for Toriko because the setting was explicitly modern/sci-fi-ish but for Sins a tier system like "B-Rank, A-Rank, S-Rank" would have worked better.

Edited by slimcoder on Sep 1st 2018 at 4:18:54 AM

"I am Alpharius. This is a lie."
thok That's Dr. Title, thank you! (4 Score & 7 Years Ago) Relationship Status: Non-Canon
That's Dr. Title, thank you!
#31224: Sep 1st 2018 at 4:20:29 PM

The thing about the Frieza fight is that either there's a pretty broad range for how big the difference between two fighters can be with a fight still being interesting, or Frieza has spectacular control over how strong his attacks are to be able to keep up the facade of having a close fight with a wide variety of opponents of differing power levels.

Or to put it another way; I'm pretty sure a DBZ fight between people with power levels of 51 and 50 going all out is close. I don't know if it's comparably close to a fight between people with power levels of 510,000 and 500,000 going all out, between people with power levels of 500,001 and 500,000 going all out, or something else altogether.

LSBK Since: Sep, 2014
#31225: Sep 1st 2018 at 4:21:35 PM

[up][up][up]Yeah, Escanor's power is just a fluke, and Ban would otherwise be nothing if he wasn't immortal.


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