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randomness4 Ghost '11 from The Land of Inconvenience Since: Sep, 2011
Ghost '11
#31176: Sep 1st 2018 at 12:18:51 PM

If he could have, he would have doesn't really work in this situation.

The point is "he could" but he just didn't.

Rules of the Internet 45. Rule 45 is a lie. Check out my art if you notice.
slimcoder The Head of the Hydra Since: May, 2013
The Head of the Hydra
#31177: Sep 1st 2018 at 1:36:50 PM

Cell is still alive.

Clearly Gohan is doing something wrong if he should able to easily stomp him.

"I am Alpharius. This is a lie."
WillKeaton from Alberta, Canada Since: Jun, 2010
#31178: Sep 1st 2018 at 1:38:23 PM

Exactly how big is this power gap between him and Cell supposed to be? Because it doesn't seem very big.

TwistedGear Don't know how to pilot this thing Since: Jun, 2014
Don't know how to pilot this thing
#31179: Sep 1st 2018 at 1:45:39 PM

"The best power level a human has recorded in the manga-" Power what now? I thought we firmly established in the saiyan arc that those numbers don't mean crud for proper martial artists.

I don't think SS 1 damaged power scaling to the point where it was impossible to catch up, Piccolo had some chance and if a human transformation or just a transformation that Saiyans lacked the ability to get could believably close the gap before they doubled and tripled it.

randomness4 Ghost '11 from The Land of Inconvenience Since: Sep, 2011
Ghost '11
#31180: Sep 1st 2018 at 1:45:54 PM

SSJ 2 Gohand > Super Perfect Cell > FSSJ 1 Gohand > Perfect Cell > FSSJ 1 Kakarrot

Gaps aren't important...

Rules of the Internet 45. Rule 45 is a lie. Check out my art if you notice.
Fedetropes Call me Blast, not Fedetropes from Doomed universe Since: Dec, 2016 Relationship Status: Shipping fictional characters
Call me Blast, not Fedetropes
#31181: Sep 1st 2018 at 1:55:28 PM

Actually Perfect Cell at full power was stronger than FPSS Gohan/Super Gohan before going SS 2.

When perfect Cell actually goes full power everyone is shocked even when SS 2 Gohan is there, even Goku, implying that level of power is something he didn't predict.

So even if Gohan wanted to fight from the start he wouldn't be able to beat Cell unless he goes into SS 2 mode.

¡PONLE QUE DIGA!:"¡HUMONGOSAURIO HASTA LA MUERTE!"
Eriorguez Since: Jun, 2009
#31182: Sep 1st 2018 at 1:58:15 PM

And then Cell went SSJ 2 and crippled Gohan, who still won.

HandsomeRob Leader of the Holey Brotherhood from The land of broken records Since: Jan, 2015
Leader of the Holey Brotherhood
#31183: Sep 1st 2018 at 2:00:39 PM

[up]

It is true that they were both holding back (Cell because he's a Prick and a Blood Knight) and Gohan due to his massive issues. So it may be that Gohan wouldn't have won unless he went full SSJ 2.

Power what now? I thought we firmly established in the saiyan arc that those numbers don't mean crud for proper martial artists.

That's not totally true. As Toriyama admitted, Power Levels via the Scouters were there in order to fudge audience perception on who would win (the Z-Warriors could raise and lower their levels and throw the villains off guard), but the numbers were always relevant. If you have a higher number than the other guy, you've won. Pure and simple. Being able to raise your level higher means nothing if it's still lower than the other guy, no matter how much you catch him off guard.

One Strip! One Strip!
LSBK Since: Sep, 2014
#31184: Sep 1st 2018 at 2:02:03 PM

Power what now? I thought we firmly established in the saiyan arc that those numbers don't mean crud for proper martial artists.

I have absolutely no idea why you would think that. Frankly, this series was always "the stronger person will probably win no matter what." People were just able to convince themselves otherwise for some reason.

Edited by LSBK on Sep 1st 2018 at 4:03:40 AM

Sigilbreaker26 Serial Procrastinator Since: Nov, 2017
Serial Procrastinator
#31185: Sep 1st 2018 at 2:03:50 PM

[up]x6

If you want to argue that the power system is this weird combination of bland and restrictive and can be very limiting to what the writer can do, then I'm not exactly going to disagree...

But it was getting like that much earlier. Zenkai boosts alone catapulted Vegeta and Goku beyond the rest of the cast.

The complaints that a lot of the non-Saiyan cast were getting left behind are not exactly new. The humans had been solidly left behind by just the Zenkai boosts. Pinpointing SSJ 2 as the moment where things got out of hand is ridiculous because A. it wasn't originally meant to be Saiyan only, it was meant to be Gohan only and B. it was the grade variations that condemned Piccolo, the last non-Saiyan to be the strongest member of the cast, to being irrelevant in any role other than a teacher. They were the transformations that surpassed his Kamicolo fusion. They are, unlike how SSJ 2 was presented originally, explicitly for all Saiyans. And unlike Gohan's transformation which caps off his character arc, they have no thematic meaning whatsoever.

"Power what now? I thought we firmly established in the saiyan arc that those numbers don't mean crud for proper martial artists."

Rob and LBSK have already replied, but I just have to ask... if you think power levels don't matter, why are you complaining about the boost SSJ 2 gives? Surely it wouldn't matter to proper martial artists.

Edited by Sigilbreaker26 on Sep 1st 2018 at 9:14:33 AM

"And when the last law was down and the Devil turned round on you, where would you hide, the laws all being flat?"
Shlugo_the_great King of Burgers from Far Far Away (On A Trope Odyssey) Relationship Status: Tsundere'ing
King of Burgers
#31186: Sep 1st 2018 at 2:09:26 PM

It was a long wait, but man, was this worth it.

I always think that the next episode of Abridged can't possibly be as funny as the old ones, bit somehow I always end up laughing my ass of anyway.

I liked the little details, like Gohan and Cell quoting Linkin Park. Now that's an reference I didn't think I see.

Finally they made Goku seem smarter, and showed that he see much farther ahead than the rest of them.

.... Wow, they really teared into Gohan this time. I mean, all of this was accurate and deserved, but I didn't think they would be so savage.

I wonder what they'll say after Gohan messes up and gets his father killed.

TobiasDrake (•̀⤙•́) (Edited uphill both ways) Relationship Status: Arm chopping is not a love language!
(•̀⤙•́)
#31187: Sep 1st 2018 at 2:11:53 PM

And then we got SS 3 (Which was more like an "SS 2 grade three" when it should have been a magic based form that could better damage Buu.) further wrecking the power scaling.

In fairness, it's not like Super Saiyan 3 ever accomplishes anything at any point in the manga. Mr. Satan contributes more to defeating Majin Buu than Super Saiyan 3 does.

"The best power level a human has recorded in the manga-" Power what now? I thought we firmly established in the saiyan arc that those numbers don't mean crud for proper martial artists.

You're mistaken. The numbers do mean something. It's just that the Earth-trained fighters are able to mislead the Scouters by masking their battle power. They do the same thing to mislead ki sensing as well; the "BUT-BUT THE SCOUTER SAID" reactions are just Frieza's forces' unique version of the "BUT I SENSED HE WAS WEAK" reaction seen in the other parts of the series.

But there is meaning in the basic idea that Krillin has a battle power of 75,000, Goku of 3 million, and Frieza of 120 million. Goku might be able to make a Scouter read his battle power as 10, but 3 million is still 3 million all the same.

With regards to the gap between Gohan and Cell

Here's the thing. When Super Perfect Cell cripples SSJ 2 Gohan, it's noted that his power drops by half. Super Saiyan 2 is a x100 multiplier, versus the x50 of Super Saiyan. Half of Gohan's SSJ 2 power, which is what he has when he obliterates Super Perfect Cell, is equal to Gohan's full SSJ 1 power.

Since Super Perfect Cell is meant to be more powerful than Perfect Cell and the equivalent of SSJ 1 Gohan is still powerful enough to kill him, this implies that Goku was sort of right; if Gohan had been willing to just cut loose and go to town on Cell, Super Saiyan 1 would have been more than enough.

Gohan far outclasses Cell. The only thing stopping him is himself.

Edited by TobiasDrake on Sep 1st 2018 at 3:12:12 AM

My Tumblr. Currently side-by-side liveblogging Digimon Adventure, sub vs dub.
HandsomeRob Leader of the Holey Brotherhood from The land of broken records Since: Jan, 2015
Leader of the Holey Brotherhood
#31188: Sep 1st 2018 at 2:12:25 PM

Well, we've had this discussion across multiple DBZ threads (and the other characters arguably became hopelessly outmatched around the Red Ribbon Arc when they literally arrived just in time to find out Goku didn't even need their help).

Then the Daimou and 23 Budokai's further cemented it, especially the latter, with a half dead Piccolo being so strong that Tien, Yamcha and Krillin together still couldn't hope to stand a chance against him.

Skill and technique are important in DB. It's just that you need power as well, and unfortunately, you need a ridiculously large amount of it, due to how much Ki you have being the One Stat to Rule Them All.

One Strip! One Strip!
Sigilbreaker26 Serial Procrastinator Since: Nov, 2017
Serial Procrastinator
#31189: Sep 1st 2018 at 2:16:05 PM

Like, in the Piccolo Daimo arc (aka King Piccolo arc) Tien, who was at the time the team Vegeta, fought Drum, one of KP's mooks. And lost. Hard. Then Goku comes along and oneshots Drum. This is a Goku that Tien could have probably killed a few days ago, having overshot him in power by drinking magic water.

Arguing that SSJ 2 is where the line is drawn is extremely difficult to justify.

"Mr. Satan contributes more to defeating Majin Buu than Super Saiyan 3 does."

What's ironic in the Buu arc, with its villain who will seemingly never stay down, is that two of the best attempts at taking him down come from not-combat relevant members of the cast -Piccolo nearly traps him in another dimension, and Mr. Satan... well, Mr. Satan contributes a ton, not only nearly ending the crisis outright early, but by recruiting a useful ally and providing one of the final major bursts of energy.

Edited by Sigilbreaker26 on Sep 1st 2018 at 9:25:37 AM

"And when the last law was down and the Devil turned round on you, where would you hide, the laws all being flat?"
Shlugo_the_great King of Burgers from Far Far Away (On A Trope Odyssey) Relationship Status: Tsundere'ing
King of Burgers
#31190: Sep 1st 2018 at 2:20:41 PM

Yeah, Piccolo Daimao arc is probably where the "weaker characters can't keep up at all" trend first started.

Fedetropes Call me Blast, not Fedetropes from Doomed universe Since: Dec, 2016 Relationship Status: Shipping fictional characters
Call me Blast, not Fedetropes
#31191: Sep 1st 2018 at 2:21:13 PM

[up][up][up][up] The problem with that is that everyone including Goku is scared of Perfect Cell full power and Super Perfect Cell, which means he has to be more powerful that FPSS Gohan/Super Gohan or else they or at least Goku won't be so shock about it.

Plus this makes Cell look like a weakling if his Super Perfect form couldn't beat FPSS Gohan/Super Gohan.

Edited by Fedetropes on Sep 1st 2018 at 6:24:32 AM

¡PONLE QUE DIGA!:"¡HUMONGOSAURIO HASTA LA MUERTE!"
LSBK Since: Sep, 2014
#31192: Sep 1st 2018 at 2:22:37 PM

It doesn't make Cell look like a weakling, it makes Gohan insanely strong, which was the point being made.

TwistedGear Don't know how to pilot this thing Since: Jun, 2014
Don't know how to pilot this thing
#31193: Sep 1st 2018 at 2:23:00 PM

Literally the first fight in DBZ was won by the fighter with the lowest number of the four present. Not to mention the power fluctuation wasn't exclusive to hiding power levels. Any given move could be stronger than the user by lare amounts, making the readings useless outside of infighting between friezas men like in the Bardock special and vegetas fights on namek.

LSBK Since: Sep, 2014
#31194: Sep 1st 2018 at 2:24:46 PM

You seem to be saying "because exceptions exist, there is no rule" which just isn't the case.

Look, if you don't like that most matches ultimately come down to pure power, that's understandable. But that doesn't change the fact that it's true.

And, no, any given move couldn't be stronger than the person as a whole. Specific attacks can be, and those are usually noted.

Really, I have never understood why so much hatred is directed at the numerical power levels. The numbers themselves didn't change anything, they just made what was already apparent even more blatant.

Edited by LSBK on Sep 1st 2018 at 4:26:52 AM

Sigilbreaker26 Serial Procrastinator Since: Nov, 2017
Serial Procrastinator
#31195: Sep 1st 2018 at 2:25:24 PM

[up][up]...I'm not sure if Gohan had a stronger power level than Krillin (though I think he did) but he definitely had more than Yajirobe.

But yeah, the Vegeta fight is one of the best in the series. Doesn't mean that power levels don't matter. Each fighter in that fight is at a different strength level, and part of its charm is how nailbitingly an underdog fight it is.

[up] The hatred's not hard to understand. First, it completely violates Show don't Tell, secondly, it leads to loads and loads and loads of arguments.

Edited by Sigilbreaker26 on Sep 1st 2018 at 9:28:15 AM

"And when the last law was down and the Devil turned round on you, where would you hide, the laws all being flat?"
Fedetropes Call me Blast, not Fedetropes from Doomed universe Since: Dec, 2016 Relationship Status: Shipping fictional characters
Call me Blast, not Fedetropes
#31196: Sep 1st 2018 at 2:26:44 PM

[up][up][up][up]Like, I get that part, but then it makes me wonder why everyone was scared of him if they could sense that Gohan was still stronger than him no matter how he powered up, I could get it before he transformed in SS 2 but after?

Edited by Fedetropes on Sep 1st 2018 at 6:30:32 AM

¡PONLE QUE DIGA!:"¡HUMONGOSAURIO HASTA LA MUERTE!"
LSBK Since: Sep, 2014
#31197: Sep 1st 2018 at 2:27:53 PM

Because no one could sense that Gohan was stronger. Goku was the only one who was aware of it.

No one was paying attention to Gohan because they didn't expect anything from him, and Gohan himself was assuming that Goku was holding back because he thought there was no way he could be stronger than his dad.

Edited by LSBK on Sep 1st 2018 at 4:30:55 AM

TobiasDrake (•̀⤙•́) (Edited uphill both ways) Relationship Status: Arm chopping is not a love language!
(•̀⤙•́)
#31198: Sep 1st 2018 at 2:37:25 PM

Goku's actually pretty cocky during the Cell Games. He's the only one who knows what Gohan's capable of and, correspondingly, he spends half the fight going, "You guys just wait; Gohan's going to rip Cell's lungs out. It's gonna be sweet. Any minute now. Aaaaaaany minute now."

Goku makes a mistake, but it's neither in overestimating Gohan's ability or underestimating Cell's. His mistake is thinking that Gohan is like him. He believes that the prospect of a kickass battle against a powerful foe will excite Gohan and encourage him to give it his all, just as it would for Goku. He projects too much of himself onto his son.

Piccolo points out that Gohan doesn't have the same love of battle as Goku, had no idea that this was going to be the plan, and is not a mighty warrior readying himself to take down his foe but instead a scared child wondering why his father sent him out there to die. It's only then that Goku starts to freak out. Not because Gohan isn't powerful enough, but because Goku totally f*cked up in his execution of the plan.

That power doesn't mean anything if Gohan's too afraid and gentle-hearted to use it.

My Tumblr. Currently side-by-side liveblogging Digimon Adventure, sub vs dub.
Eriorguez Since: Jun, 2009
#31199: Sep 1st 2018 at 2:37:29 PM

Tien managing to beat Drum but then getting easily handled by Piccolo, or Piccolo managing to put Nappa on the ropes, just for him to target Gohan and trigger the sacrifice, would had made for more entertaining fights, in my opinion.

VeryMelon Since: Jul, 2011 Relationship Status: Anime is my true love
#31200: Sep 1st 2018 at 2:37:54 PM

The hatred's not hard to understand. First, it completely violates Show don't Tell, secondly, it leads to loads and loads and loads of arguments.

You're the first person I've seen give a real reason for disliking it.


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